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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22776: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:03:05 PM

There's no reason he wouldn't go enjoy a fine steak dinner either.

A character needs more than no reason he wouldn't to have an effective motivation.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22777: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:03:43 PM

That's because I've had a few different ideas over the years as to what could have improved Cell.

One is to keep the Cell Games a thing but make it an honest and proper Tournament Arc. Cell has achieved Perfection and thinks he's the hottest shit around, so he's holding a tournament. An actual tournament, not "Everyone dogpile on me and we'll just pretend it's a tournament." No threat to the Earth because there really doesn't need to be one. That was just silly. Everyone in the cast at this point would be more than happy to fight him.

Effectively, this would make him a dark mirror of Goku. Loves fighting powerful opponents, constantly wants to test himself, but more willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals. Problem is, it makes Vegeta superfluous. You can have interesting rival Cell or interesting rival Vegeta, but the two can't coexist.

Of course there's the total lack of stake in that scenario. Like, who cares if Cell wins or loses? Goku's got nothing to prove at this point, he's Won the world tournament, and he's beaten Freeza. Who cares if a weird bug guy is stronger than him. Plus it's not like Goku's never lost tournaments before. While yeah, it makes Cell marginally more interesting, it's at the cost of the plot. "Oh No, Cell might get an ego boost" isn't much.

edited 21st Dec '16 1:05:15 PM by Ghilz

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22778: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:07:18 PM

The 21st and 22nd Budokais managed to have stakes despite not having anyone who was actively threatening the annihilation of the entire planet. They were just more personal about it.

The stakes in the 21st are that if Goku is allowed to win the tournament, he may become complacent about his capabilities and stop caring about fighting so much. He was actually sort of the antagonist; with Goku's entire future on the line, it was up to Kame-sennin to do the impossible and actually beat the monstrously powerful kid.

The stakes in the 22nd, similarly, were all about Tien's future and who he would become. He was caught in a tug-of-war between Kame-sennin and Tsuru-sennin, one that was actually resolved before his fight with Goku ended when he chose to embrace Goku's way of life and abandon his desire to become the next Taopaipai.

If the Cell Games were taken more seriously, the stakes would be Cell. With so much that he could become, what will he become?

edited 21st Dec '16 1:07:55 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22779: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:07:31 PM

[up][up][up]I think the point is that your looking at it like he needs a reason to do it when from his perspective he would need a reason not to do it. He been wiping out life and enjoying every moment of it. Why should he stop just because he got what he wanted? When there's really nothing left to do, why should he give up the one thing that entertained him?

He admitted right off the bat to Piccolo that he had no larger plan and it was all just for the sake of his completion and power for power's sake.

Honestly, I don't even think that's unrealistic, you've never had times when you've wanted to do something and weren't thinking why shouldn't I instead why should I?

edited 21st Dec '16 1:08:38 PM by LSBK

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22780: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:12:42 PM

The stakes in the 21st are that if Goku is allowed to win the tournament, he may become complacent about his capabilities and stop caring about fighting so much. He was actually sort of the antagonist; with Goku's entire future on the line, it was up to Kame-sennin to do the impossible and actually beat the monstrously powerful kid.

The stakes in the 22nd, similarly, were all about Tien's future and who he would become. He was caught in a tug-of-war between Kame-sennin and Tsuru-sennin, one that was actually resolved before his fight with Goku ended when he chose to embrace Goku's way of life and abandon his desire to become the next Taopaipai.

For the 21st, those aren't the stakes, because that's only given by Roshi after the tournament has already begun for HIS reason to enter. The stakes are literally "Let's see how Far Goku's come, and can he be the world's strongest"? Because we genuinely don't know the answer. And The circumstances are different, in the 21st and 22nd, we don't KNOW all the fighters. Who can win is up in the air. There's no garantee Goku can win. Has Goku surpassed Roshi? Everyone has stakes in the 21st. Can Krillin match Goku? Does Roshi still have it, or is it time for him to let his pupils take the foreground?

In the 22nd Tien's been trained by Roshi's rival, and idolizes the man who, at this point, had been Goku's biggest rival. Him beating Goku matters because Goku really wants to win after his close lost last time. He wants to prove how far he's come. It's the whole Rocky 2 thing. Goku doesn't have the same motivation anymore by cell's time. He's won already. He's proved his mettle over and over. Him losing to Cell wouldn't even be a blow to the ego. And like you said, Tien's walking a line between good and evil.

Not counting that without a threat, you have NO REASON for Gohan to take part. Gohan gives no shit about being the strongest. He fights to protect those he loves. Not like his father to prove himself.

edited 21st Dec '16 1:15:39 PM by Ghilz

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22781: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:14:57 PM

Goku did admit Cell was stronger, so we know how a normal tournament match with him and Cell would go.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22782: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:21:55 PM

But that's exactly the point. The fate of the world was not at stake in either of those situations and yet it still felt intense and dramatic.

Losing the Cell Games might not mean anything to Goku - that is, if we assume Goku has spontaneously lost his love of fighting and doesn't care about winning anymore - but what would winning mean for Cell?

Cell has the combined ego of Goku, Piccolo, Vegeta, Frieza, and King Cold. But he also has the combined capacity for redemption of Goku, Piccolo, and Vegeta. But he also has the combined capacity of irredeemable evil of Frieza and King Cold. So who is he? Who does he want to be?

There is so much room to explore Cell's character. But it's never realized. Instead, we get a serial murder who murders for lulz because when you boil everything that Dragon Ball's ever been down to a single character, it's just a shallow murderer with no reason or character of any sort.

Cell, as a character, embodies everything that Dragon Ball is. And he thoroughly fails in that regard, unless you really don't like Dragon Ball. Then he's fine.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#22783: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:24:24 PM

He did have a purpose for killing at first: he wanted to get strong enough to absorb the Androids.

The legend has returned.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#22784: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:28:31 PM

There's no reason he wouldn't go enjoy a fine steak dinner either.

A character needs more than no reason he wouldn't to have an effective motivation.

Well, the steaks have never been higher.....

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22785: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:31:50 PM

Losing the Cell Games might not mean anything to Goku - that is, if we assume Goku has spontaneously lost his love of fighting and doesn't care about winning anymore

Seeing as Goku gives up against Cell... :-P

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22787: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:47:02 PM

Cell baking some green in his steaks?

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22788: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:48:24 PM

[up][up] I see you like your steaks a bit rare? Some pink on the inside?

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22789: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:49:18 PM

If the Cell Games were taken more seriously, the stakes would be Cell. With so much that he could become, what will he become?

You should just read the Chimera Ant arc in Hunter x Hunter. That tells the story you wanted the Cell Saga to be. tongue

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#22790: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:54:50 PM

I don't really agree with Tobias that Cell was somehow supposed to represent everything that Dragon Ball is or be the culmination of everything that's happened up to that point or whatever. Like he's made from the DNA of a bunch of characters but there's no greater meaning to it than a backstory to explain why he's so powerful, nor do I see any reason why there should be.

As long as we're all throwing out our ideas to give tension to the Cell Arc without Cell just deciding to destroy the world, how about this: All the people and androids absorbed by Cell can't be brought back by the Dragon Balls as long as they're still part of him. BAM, instant conflict!

edited 21st Dec '16 1:56:49 PM by Druplesnubb

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22791: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:58:28 PM

It's all academic. Any idea that improves Cell's motivation works just because Cell has none organically.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22792: Dec 21st 2016 at 1:58:36 PM

[up][up] That'd work.

edited 21st Dec '16 1:58:42 PM by Ghilz

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#22793: Dec 21st 2016 at 2:26:18 PM

After Frieza the more personal fights of the androids in their quest to kill Goku was a welcome change. Cell as well did that quite well, the incentive to get Goku to fight was destruction.. which was a pointless addition because Goku would fight anyway.

Not every fight needs to be over the world or dimension. I wish Super would get that, especially with the stakes in the next arc.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22794: Dec 21st 2016 at 2:35:59 PM

I see Cell as like a vampire.

I have a message from another time...
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22795: Dec 21st 2016 at 2:45:26 PM

Super's first tournament didn't have any major stakes.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#22796: Dec 21st 2016 at 2:53:25 PM

Also I just want to point out that when Tobias says "Some fans say Freeza should never have been surpassed after Namek", what you actually mean is you. Only you. No other fan in the history of the series has said "Man, it sure would have been great if, after Goku has one of the coolest moments in the history of the medium and becomes the Super Saiyan so he can finally defeat Freeza, if he still wasn't strong enough and had to run away."

My various fanfics.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22797: Dec 21st 2016 at 3:05:20 PM

After Frieza the more personal fights of the androids in their quest to kill Goku was a welcome change

Only 20 had a personal beef with Goku, and he never even fought Goku. 19 was literally mindless. 16 Wanted to kill Goku, and 17 and 18 went along with it coz they literally could not think of anything else to do at the time. And even 16 wasn't particularly focused on that goal.

"personal fights" my ass.

Super's first tournament didn't have any major stakes.

Or the baseball Tournament. Or most of the filler (Which fun as hell in Super). Or Hit trying to kill Goku...

edited 21st Dec '16 3:07:01 PM by Ghilz

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#22798: Dec 21st 2016 at 3:18:27 PM

Did Goku even get any stronger during the three years he was training for the Androids? I mean, we never see any evidence that he's stronger, and I think somone flat out says that Vegeta was stronger than Goku during the fight against 19, and he was behind Goku when they started training...

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22799: Dec 21st 2016 at 3:25:57 PM

[up][up][up] that was Saiga, not Tobias.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22800: Dec 21st 2016 at 3:29:31 PM

[up][up]Why wouldn't he be stronger? Vegeta being stronger than Goku doesn't mean Goku didn't improve, it just means Vegeta improved more. But to answer your question, Piccolo comments that if not for the heart virus Goku would have been able to easily defeat 19, and that's unlikely to be something he could have done after first getting back to Earth.


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