You are totally supposed to root for Vegeta in the story. You're supposed to root for him when he wrecks Android 19 and goes after Gero, a scene in which he literally takes over for Goku because the latter's under the weather.
When 18 wrecks Vegeta, it's supposed to be a dark moment where the last hope the protagonists have of overcoming the Androids is defeated and, for the moment, it looks like the annihilation that Trunks warned about may in fact be coming.
When Vegeta and Trunks go into the RoSaT, you're supposed to be rooting for them to power up and stop Cell from absorbing the Androids.
Vegeta is not a hero but he is a protagonist and the audience is meant to hope he succeeds, even though it's cathartic to watch him fail. That's part of what made Vegeta such a popular character: when he wins, it's awesome, and when he fails, it's highly entertaining, so he's a great ball of fun no matter what he does.
But that creates a fairly stark contrast when he's actually more of a menace than the actual villains of the arc, and the series is acting like we're supposed to be pushing for him to beat them. TFS lampshades this quite nicely with Trunks's line, "The Androids are humanity's greatest threat!" juxtaposed against Vegeta's, "I will kill as many people as I have to as long as you are one of them!"
Which is a great moment.
Problem with Cell is, he just doesn't make Vegeta feel like the lesser of evils. Vegeta is far too much of a murderous, amoral shithead to be a protagonist against a villain whose claim to evil is as weak as Cell's.
edited 21st Dec '16 11:54:52 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Plus, Vegeta didn't really kill for the lulz. He certainly enjoyed killing when he had to but he didn't take every opportunity to kill people.
If the Namekians in that village had just given him the dragonball he probably wouldn't have killed which we have evidence of him letting Krillin and Bulma live when they just hand it over. Then there's him not killing Gohan when he ran into him (although he did knee him in the stomach).
The point is, Cell is one of the few characters who killing in and of itself was the goal. And he's also even rarer in that he's not a mindless monster like Kid Buu or Hirudegarn or whatever.
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So you're just going to ignore the point in time and context Yakuza was referencing because it contradicts your point then?
edited 21st Dec '16 11:56:41 AM by LSBK
Tobias, be my pal for a moment: are you saying that Toriyama's kind of a shitty writer (at least in this regard), because one of his protagonists that we're meant to root for isn't too different from the villains (or even worse)?
edited 21st Dec '16 11:59:21 AM by KarkatTheDalek
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You just basically summed up the entire point :V Yes, Vegeta is a protagonist, that doesn't mean he was a good person. You're not supposed to root for Vegeta because he's a hero who needs to stop a villain, you didn't have a choice because there was literally nobody else who could handle it.
Regardless, you using that to say "Hey Cell isn't so bad" is moot because they're both fucking scumbags, the only difference is that Cell ends up a bigger threat in the end due to being stronger, but that by no means that he wasn't a menace to begin with. Using Vegeta as a point of comparison falls flat because the point still stands that Cell was a fucking evil scumbag due to having the genes of two scumbags already.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:00:34 PM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.See, that doesn't read "rarer" to me. It reads "weaker".
That Cell is not a mindless one-dimensional monster and merely behaves like one for lack of any defined reason to be villainous puts him under the characters who are supposed to be one-dimensional like Pure Buu in my book. Cell has more potential as a character than Buu but because it is never realized, he is lesser for it.
Pure Buu might not be particularly complex, but he isn't supposed to be.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Well, what would you expect from him after achieving his perfection? He's already a casual mass murderer with no scruples. The only value the worthless rabble around him have is either to become dinner or to be someone for him to show off to. Not sure he can still eat people with that stubby little tail either.
Intent. Cell was a Serial Killer increasing his power so he could absorb the Andriods easier, while Piccolo ran out of time and was forced to cross the Godzilla Threshold. He was under the assumption that the Lookout was safe from Super Buu, so Gotenks could train in peace. Super Buu found the Lookout way before anyone was ready, so Piccolo rushed to find anyway he could to stall Super Buu.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:11:39 PM by VeryMelon
I think the Cell Games work because it comes across as an arbitrary Conflict Ball in-universe too, and is the entire reason Gohan is apprehensive about fighting Cell.
As an aside, Vegeta being so high on the list is absolutely understandable to me if they include his short tenure under Babidi, because Vegeta's character development there was amazing. You almost never have a villain undergo a Heel–Face Turn, then come to regret said Heel–Face Turn and try to go back to their old ways, especially not done so well and so organically. It also helps that Vegeta, at that point, is exactly where he should be for a mid-life crisis, which is basically what that decision is, except Played for Drama.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:31:33 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
And that's the problem. He's the culmination of every arc that came before, built from a little piece of everything that has ever happened in the series, and the most he has to show for it is that he sure does love killing folks for no reason, yup yup.
He has all the potential to be the greatest villain in the entire franchise, and instead he has less depth and complexity than characters who are designed to be one-dimensional killing machines.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'd really like to know what you think he should have been like. Like what his motivations should be and what he should be trying to do.
I think you've already explained it, but I believe I found that explanation rather vague and hard to follow.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:23:08 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!Mhm. I'm comfortable saying King Piccolo being ranked higher than Cell. Cell is a catalyst for some moments better than anything there, and 2/3 of Cell's designs are probably better than Piccolo's. Are the things that could arguably give Cell an edge. On the whole side of the fence: everything else about both characters.
I think you've already explained it, but I believe I found that explanation rather vague and hard to follow.
That's because I've had a few different ideas over the years as to what could have improved Cell.
One is to keep the Cell Games a thing but make it an honest and proper Tournament Arc. Cell has achieved Perfection and thinks he's the hottest shit around, so he's holding a tournament. An actual tournament, not "Everyone dogpile on me and we'll just pretend it's a tournament."
No threat to the Earth because there really doesn't need to be one. That was just silly. Everyone in the cast at this point would be more than happy to fight him.
Effectively, this would make him a dark mirror of Goku. Loves fighting powerful opponents, constantly wants to test himself, but more willing to go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals. Problem is, it makes Vegeta superfluous. You can have interesting rival Cell or interesting rival Vegeta, but the two can't coexist.
Another option would be to take advantage of the Piccolo/Vegeta/Frieza/King Cold parts of Cell to give him an actual motivation. Perfect Cell #2 is a character driven by the ambitions of the most evil men in the universe. He wants to resurrect the Planet Trade and he's going to start with Earth. This version has no tournament.
Flaw with #2 is that it works against the premise of Cell being the culmination of everything that's ever happened. Without the Cell Games, the character can't represent the three Tenkaichi Budokais that were a major part of the series before Raditz arrives.
A third idea I've had ties into a previous argument I've made that the Android arc would fit better into the story if it took place between escaping Namek and defeating Frieza. Either version of Cell could have a world of opportunity to develop a unique identity if Frieza chose now to arrive on Earth seeking vengeance for Namek.
You could have either a Cell who winds up ingratiating himself into the protagonists like Piccolo and Vegeta before him as they work together against a common threat that f*cked up Cell's tournament, or a Cell that openly competes with Frieza for dominance of the PTO and control of the universe.
Or both.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:39:12 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Honestly, I'd put Piccolo Jr over King Piccolo on my personal 'best villains' list. King Piccolo did some awesome and horrifying things, but his personality was pretty bland and generically evil. On the other hand, Piccolo Jr very much came across like a teenager desperately trying to live up to his father's legacy of being the Ultimate Evil, despite having some good in him, and being significantly less experienced in being the Ultimate Evil, and coming across as a little too theatrical about supposedly being the Ultimate Evil.
Regarding Piccolo: I'm with Lani on this one. I wouldn't separate Daimao and Jr. on grounds that they're the same f*cking guy. So my list would just have "Piccolo" and it would only be taking into account his actions in the Daimao arc and the 23rd Budokai.
From Raditz's arrival onwards, Piccolo is less of a villain than Vegeta was on Namek.
edited 21st Dec '16 12:43:56 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I get the feeling that they're talking about them as characters as a whole, rather than just as villains. It will likely be the same with Vegeta.
Oh God! Natural light!Honestly, almost all of the villains in this series are pretty bland when it comes to personality and motivations. It doesn't mean they can't be entertaining, because a lot of them certainly are, but this was never a series for really complex villains.
Piccolo, Vegeta, and Buu come closets to that, and, again, it's mostly because they didn't really stay villains after their respective reigns of terror.
edited 21st Dec '16 1:04:28 PM by LSBK
Tobias: I'm not arguing that he's a complex villain, I'm arguing that something like the Cell Games does make sense when you consider who he is and that he was always an evil bastard. There's no reason he wouldn't decide to destroy the world, but you treat that like it's somehow weird and just done for the sake of raising the stakes regardless of characterization.
And why should he want to rule the universe? He doesn't care about ruling over others. Honestly, between him and Frieza, I'd say Frieza's motivation is much more generic. Great, he's an evil overlord, never seen that before.

Look, I don't think it's just about getting stronger to defeat the Androids - it's about how you do that. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is fine, but killing people and absorbing their bio-mass is not.
And yes, that's true even if you can revive these people - you're still causing tons of destruction and suffering. As I understand it, Piccolo only told Buu to go kill off the rest of humanity because it was the only option they had. It's not like that was their first resort.
Oh God! Natural light!