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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22726: Dec 21st 2016 at 10:00:09 AM

deerp

edited 21st Dec '16 10:01:10 AM by Ghilz

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22727: Dec 21st 2016 at 10:13:44 AM

Number 4: It's ya boy, Cell.

Yeah, that's why I don't get the criticisms of Resurrection 'F' that it had no tension once Beerus showed up, since he immediately established that he did not give a shit one way or another if Freeza destroyed Earth.

Beerus' presence didn't bother me so much as Goku and Vegeta breaking out into a fight over who had dibs to fight Freeza. That sucked the tension out because neither Goku nor Vegeta was taking him seriously as a threat.

edited 21st Dec '16 10:13:57 AM by Lionheart0

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22729: Dec 21st 2016 at 10:16:59 AM

[up][up]

Which they really should have been Both of them understand very well how dangerous Frieza is, and should have treated him as a definitive threat, especially with his new power.

They should have sought to defeat him as quickly and efficiently as possible, and I hope neither of them ever forget that their dicking around gave him the chance to destroy the planet.

edited 21st Dec '16 10:17:10 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22731: Dec 21st 2016 at 10:35:01 AM

Goku wasn't the one who got the final blow on Vegeta, if that's what you meant.

Idle thought: I hope Gohan got a TON of XP off that. He was KO'd himself, though, so he might have missed out and it all went to Krillin and Goku.

Dabura is memorable to me because the very first episode of Dragonball Z I ever watched was the episode where he tries to fight Buu and gets turned into candy. I don't know how much of an impact he made on anyone else.

And Babidi was pretty memorable because of that scene where Buu gets sick of being bossed around and squashes his head.

Now that I think about it, that their most memorable moments were them getting killed by Buu and not anything they did themselves probably speaks to why they're not showing up on the list.

Dabura's greatest moment was overpowering Gohan, but even that's undercut by Goku and Vegeta shittalking Gohan. He fought a little bit better than evenly with a nerfed Super Saiyan while the other two Super Saiyans stood around talking about how stupid it is that he's doing this well and how effortlessly they could rip out his lungs if they were fighting him.

The trek through Babidi's ship is a parade of incompetence on the part of Babidi's henchmen that really establishes how insane the Super Saiyans have become in comparison to the universe they exist in. To Kaioshin's utter consternation, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan refuse to take Babidi seriously and treat his forces like a child's game, and they are entirely justified to do so because Babidi's forces are powerless against them.

Dabura performs the best, and even that much is just mildly outperforming the weakest of the three. He's the Tien to Goku and Vegeta's Vegeta and Nappa; he's not the screw-up that got killed by a Saibaman, but it'll be a cold day in Hell before he's a real threat.

Which all serves the purpose of building up Majin Buu and creating that moment of "Oh shit" when the god-killing abomination proves to be not so harmless after all. That's Babidi and Dabura's role: being shitty, hopeless non-threats that make Majin Buu's awakening that much more devastating by comparison.

In a series where each new villain is distinguished by how much more powerful they are from the last guys the protagonists fought, Dabura entered the stage seven years later as roughly equal to Cell.

I think Vegeta, Cell, and Piccolo might shuffle spots though. I think King Piccolo might be second now that I think about it though; when you get down to it, he is probably the most effective villain in the whole series given that he actually won, straight up. No ambiguity and his plan was perfect to boot.

Dr. Gero won. When he started building his androids he had only one goal in mind: kill Son Goku.

When the dust finally settled at the end of the Cell Games, Son Goku was dead. The Androids successfully accomplished the task Gero built them to perform.

Because from the MOMENT he's introduced, Freeza is presented as this insurmountable force. He's not just stronger than the heroes. He eclipses them. He's a grizzly facing kittens. No villain before had ever been showcased this way. Raditz was more powerful than Goku, but Goku and Piccolo teaming up could stand a chance. Nappa crushed the warriors, but you knew Goku was coming and he'd just gotten off training with a god so he'd take him on. Even when Vegeta and Goku fight, the difference between the two isn't that huge. Freeza being so impossible WTF strong is constantly drilled through the reader's head. The moment Krillin and Gohan land and they feel his power, they go "NOPE". Most of the Namek arc consists of avoiding the shit out of him. Even Vegeta with his numerous powerups through the arc still avoids Freeza till he can't. King Kai constantly drills it in "You can't beat Freeza". Even once Goku shows up, it's abundantly clear that despite him being leagues ahead of everyone, Freeza's final form is STILL miles ahead of him.

Sure, he was surpassed, but it took the fulfilling of an ancient myth, and it's the buildup that makes Goku surpassing Frieza amazing. Because unlike other villains, the arc kept telling us it can't be done.

Which is why some fans say he shouldn't have been surpassed on Namek. Because everything that built up to that moment is incredible. Even Goku's transformation is pretty neat. But the fight pretty abruptly shifts from amazing to "Oh god, now it's dragging" once the Super Saiyan begins fighting.

Even Toriyama seems to understand these days that when you build up a character that's meant to be THAT MUCH more powerful than your protagonists, maybe you SHOULDN'T have them suddenly pull a transformation out of their ass and whup him on the spot. Retaining his level of threat and power for at least a few arcs afterwards is what separates Beerus from Frieza.

Beerus is more personable, but the point is that a big part of what made his character great isn't just that he's more powerful than Goku on a Frieza scale, but that he wasn't surpassed at the end of his movie. When push came to shove, Goku lost, and this set him on the path that Super eventually picked up: it gave him a goal to overcome.

That's pretty much the only thing missing from Frieza: lasting presence.

Number 4: It's ya boy, Cell.

I agree with just about everything they said. I've talked about this before, but I think Cell could have hugely benefitted as a character by being less evil. The thing about the other characters is that they're villainous through and through. They had evil goals. Piccolo wanted to take over the Earth and/or destroy it. Vegeta wanted to be the immortal destroyer of worlds. Frieza wanted the same on a higher scale.

What did Cell want? Not much, really. He has a huge motivation problem in that he only really has two goals: 1) absorb the Androids, and 2) be the baddest ass around. The first one is identical to Future Trunks - he is literally here from the future to defeat the mechanical threat terrorizing our heroes - and the second is identical to every protagonist in the series.

The only reason Cell is even a villain is because he acts like a dick. But again, so do our heroes! Remember that time Vegeta needlessly massacred a Namekian village and then gloated about it to the revived Namekians? But here we are, cheering for him to become more powerful so that he can defeat Cell, who killed some human cities because he needed their power to defeat the sinister Androids - cities that would be revivable if not for Piccolo and God merging to confront him, and are revivable once Dende takes over.

In essence, the only reason Cell stands out as the bad guy is because he's given some of Frieza's mannerisms. Take away the petty way he carries himself and he's not that different from any of the protagonists. Even his city-massacring is, like...it achieved a purpose. In the very next arc, Piccolo asks Majin Buu to go exterminate all humankind to buy Gotenks time to train. How is that any different?

Toriyama tried really hard to make Cell the next step up in villainy after Frieza - especially with moments like Cell threatening to destroy the solar system - but what he winds up with is Frieza Lite. A character who would probably be much stronger and more memorable if he were willing to step back, be more Affable than Evil, and really challenge the series's concept of what a villain even is.

...which, I realize again, is basically what Beerus ultimately did. Beerus is like the best parts of Frieza and Cell combined.

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Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#22732: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:13:45 AM

Also includes #4. It's Cell, surprisingly. Was expecting him at 3.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#22733: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:18:52 AM

[up][up] ...So, um...could you be more specific on how you think Cell should have been written? I mean, what should Toriyama have had him do?

Because...I really do not follow your logic at all.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:19:08 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22734: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:19:04 AM

The only reason Cell is even a villain is because he acts like a dick. But again, so do our heroes! Remember that time Vegeta needlessly massacred a Namekian village and then gloated about it to the revived Namekians?

I mean, considering he was by no means on the heroes side at that point and everyone reacts with shock and disgust I'm not really sure what your point here is.

Personally, I've always liked that Cell had no greater goal in mind beyond his completion. It really works with being "Gero's last android", which is basically what he is and why he's so singled-minded. After that, him finding ways to enjoy himself and defaulting to having a tournament just 'cause and killing everyone if no one beats him is great because of how nonchalant he is about it.

None of it matters to him at that point because he already got what he wanted and is just trying to kill time. I get why that would be off putting to some, but I like. He's not mindless but he's not some evil overlord wannabe either. he's just bored with a lot of time to kill.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:36:09 AM by LSBK

EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#22735: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:31:11 AM

Who then decides killing the universe would be fun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22736: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:32:26 AM

[up][up] See, and I follow all of that right up to the "and killing everyone if he wins" part. Because it's pointless dickery that does nothing to service the character. The, "If I win, I blow up the planet," threat is really only there because Cell ran out of reasons to be villainous but hadn't been beaten yet, so there needed to be some reason why him just going, "Mission accomplished!" is a bad thing.

Because without that threat, he's not really a villain. That's the issue. He came back in time and successfully ended the threat of the Androids. Like, great job, Cell! Good on you. You're a Trunks who can actually succeed at his goal. And now he's a powerful combatant with a bloody history who really just wants to have cool battles with powerful foes. That's nearly every protagonist anyways; he'll fit right in!

Cell doesn't really have anything to do after that. He won. Straight up won. And that victory is actually kinda a good thing because although it kinda slipped Krillin's mind, the Androids were dangerous, amoral psychos who were trying to murder the protagonists and who the entire arc revolved around stopping. Cell stopped them. He is the hero of the Android Arc.

But he's also supposed to be the villain of the Cell arc and the problem is that he has no reason to be. None whatsoever. He did what he came here to do, ran out of motivation, and was like, "Uh, shit. Um. Pointless threat pointless threat pointless threat THE STORY IS OVER, GUYS, WHY HAVEN'T YOU STOPPED ME YET?!?!"

Cell needed one of two things: he either needed an actual reason to continue being a threat to the world at large, or he needed to stop being a threat to the world at large. The Cell Games tries to have it both ways and it's just kinda stupid.

Cell's out of villainous motivation so it's time for a Tournament Arc like DB used to do! Except there's no tournament. None. Not even the pretenses of one. Because Cell's supposed to be a villain and it's really just supposed to be about beating him, even though there's no reason to even still be fighting him, so he has to just rip one out of his ass.

The result is a conclusion that fails both as a Tournament Arc AND as a final showdown with the arc's ultimate villain - because it's not really either - which in turn ultimately undermines Gohan stepping up as the new hero.

EDIT: Basically, the problem with Cell is that the only stakes in the conflict are that if Cell succeeds, Goku might have yet another challenger for the title of Universe's Strongest. So he's given a bunch of arbitrary Bad Guy stuff that makes it seem more dire than it really is. His villainy is window dressing.

It's like dedicating an arc to Yamcha and Tien trying to stop Vegeta from becoming a Super Saiyan at all costs, because he might be a threat to Goku again if he does.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:36:12 AM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22737: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:37:38 AM

[up][up][up]I think the latter is why I kind of agree with Tobias a bit; there's no denying Cell was a dick, but he didn't really have any grandoise plan in mind after becoming perfect so he just does a tournament for the hell of it. Hell, I'm almost certain both him and Goku enjoyed their match.

At that point, the only reason Cell continues to be evil is because of the Saiyan cells within him crave a challenge and he'll just blow up the earth...because he wants a fight. But the thing is, it's not like nobody didn't want to fight him at that point.

And then when he starts losing to Gohan, it really does feel like a parallel to the Freiza fight at that point; hero gets a new power up to overcome the villain, villain rage quits and blows up the planet. The only difference is Cell willingly brought on Gohan's transformation and Goku sacrifices himself to stop Cell from blowing up the planet.

I love Cell for the reasons they described, he's the catalyst for a lot of iconic moments, but he himself isn't very interesting in terms of personality and motivation, so his placement makes sense when compared to the likes of King Piccolo and Frieza, who had better defined personalities and actual goals in mind.

But man, the fact that Vegeta is in the top 3 bugs me to no end.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:38:45 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22738: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:38:04 AM

[up][up]But that adds on to it for me, he'll do it because he enjoys it with no greater meaning. Whether he was programmed to like killing or grew to like it after he eating so many people, he found one thing that he did like doing and could make things less boring and ran with it.

[up]Agreed so much on Vegeta.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:38:40 AM by LSBK

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22739: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:40:01 AM

But that's not a villain in Dragon Ball. You know who else really enjoys fighting powerful foes and killing helpless victims? Vegeta. Hell, Piccolo was a sadist too before his development. Even Tien was a shithead who desired to become an assassin and follow in Taopaipai's footsteps.

Just being a bit of an asshole does not a villain make in a series where the entire protagonist cast are a bunch of murderers and criminals loosely held together by a mutual love of getting punched in the face by Goku.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:42:03 AM by TobiasDrake

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#22740: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:40:38 AM

We ignoring the number of people Cell absorbed to power himself up? And I think there were others after that as well, but I might be misremembering.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#22741: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:41:05 AM

As far as I can tell, what differentiates him from someone like Goku is that his route to becoming the biggest badass in the universe involves him killing and absorbing innocent people.

So to say that he's just like our main protagonists seems...wrong.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
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#22742: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:42:17 AM

Huh. So one of Gero's creations [Cell] exceeded Gero's design and plan, and instead of doing what Gero would've wanted once the goal was achieved, chose to wreck shit on a grand scale just because he can and nobody can stop him.

How... unexpected

edited 21st Dec '16 11:43:12 AM by Enlong

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22743: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:44:18 AM

So to say that he's just like our main protagonists seems...wrong.

By main characters, I think Tobias is mainly referring to Vegeta, who did leave a trail of bodies behind them before their eventual Heel–Face Turn.

Cell doesn't really have anything to do after that. He won. Straight up won. And that victory is actually kinda a good thing because although it kinda slipped Krillin's mind, the Androids were dangerous, amoral psychos who were trying to murder the protagonists and who the entire arc revolved around stopping. Cell stopped them. He is the hero of the Android Arc.

Well, he did want to prove he was stronger than Goku. Though admittedly, he didn't need to threaten to destroy the Earth to motivate Goku. tongue

edited 21st Dec '16 11:48:26 AM by Lionheart0

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22744: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:44:45 AM

[up][up][up][up] No, I brought them up earlier. As well as the fact that Vegeta's done worse.

Cell killed countless people to power himself up enough that he could defeat the Androids, a goal even the protagonists were at their wit's end about how to accomplish.

Vegeta killed countless people for profit or just lulz. He massacred a Namekian village even though he already had their Dragon Ball just because he could. Then, when they were the only village not revived, Vegeta merrily gloated about their deaths to the others.

Cell, at his worst, is less evil than Vegeta, but we're more than happy to help Vegeta become more powerful in order to combat Cell. Because Vegeta is ostensibly a protagonist despite nobody having any reason to trust him, and Cell is a villain without any motivation to be so.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:45:37 AM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22745: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:45:22 AM

Yea, I think Tobias conveniently forgot the amount of people Cell killed to achieve his perfect form. The Androids didn't even do anything wrong at that point in the story because Cell absorbed them before they could. But Cell had absorbed an entire village and blew up multiple islands in his pursuit to get to his final form.

You have a point about him not being much different from Vegeta, but the story doesn't pretend he's even remotely a good guy at that point in the story, so that's moot.

[up]Once again, Vegeta is NOT a hero at that point of the story. You're not supposed to sympathize with him or root for him in anyway. Does the fact that every other character that's not Goku treat him with disgust not tip that off to you? The only thing Vegeta had going for him is that he was the second strongest person who could oppose the villains if Goku wasn't around so they didn't really have a choice in the matter.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:47:30 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22746: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:46:41 AM

The lack of motivation is an issue through the entire arc.

First you get a previously unmentioned character related to an organization LONG forgotten who decides to get revenge (despite the fact he wasn't even around when that happened to Goku). After they are soundly beaten they are replaced by 2 more androids who kill him, and who sort of decide they will kill Goku, but the most half-heartedly way possible and really seem to only pay token lip service to that goal coz it gives them something to do. None of them are invested in their goal.

Then Cell shows up. He's got a goal, but we see how that goes when he reaches it.

Because without that threat, he's not really a villain. That's the issue. He came back in time and successfully ended the threat of the Androids. Like, great job, Cell! Good on you. You're a Trunks who can actually succeed at his goal. And now he's a powerful combatant with a bloody history who really just wants to have cool battles with powerful foes. That's nearly every protagonist anyways; he'll fit right in!

Cell doesn't really have anything to do after that. He won. Straight up won. And that victory is actually kinda a good thing because although it kinda slipped Krillin's mind, the Androids were dangerous, amoral psychos who were trying to murder the protagonists and who the entire arc revolved around stopping. Cell stopped them. He is the hero of the Android Arc.

Androids aren't really villains though. The Future Ones are, but the current one don't even kill anyone other than Gero who definitely is a villain. Sure, they wanna kill Goku, but they barely are putting any effort towards that.

edited 21st Dec '16 11:50:20 AM by Ghilz

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#22747: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:47:50 AM

I would love if Vegeta just isn't on the list, period.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22748: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:49:08 AM

[up] Put in Turles. He's basically a Vegeta stand in. tongue

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22749: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:50:09 AM

Hell, right before they fight Freiza and summon Porunga Krillin even says that while both him and Vegeta are scumbags, the latter is the lesser of the two evils and reluctantly try to grant him immortality.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22750: Dec 21st 2016 at 11:51:51 AM

Monster Carrot for #2!

:-P


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