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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22676: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:11:52 AM

You say Freeza is just Vegeta 2.0, I say Vegeta is just Piccolo 2.0, and I greatly prefer the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc over the Great Saiyan Scuffle.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22677: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:12:40 AM

I'll never fathom why Freeza became seen as this insurmountable figure that should not have been surpassed when he was dealt with like any other villain in the manga.

I always took that as more of a "Toriyama wanted to end it here, guys!" thing some fan made up. It's not any different from the Gohan fans that say the Android Saga was meant to be the last one.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22678: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:44:17 AM

If it were it to end there, the end of the Cell arc does read quite well as a finale.

I have a message from another time...
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22679: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:16:16 AM

I'll never fathom why Freeza became seen as this insurmountable figure that should not have been surpassed when he was dealt with like any other villain in the manga.

Because from the MOMENT he's introduced, Freeza is presented as this insurmountable force. He's not just stronger than the heroes. He eclipses them. He's a grizzly facing kittens. No villain before had ever been showcased this way. Raditz was more powerful than Goku, but Goku and Piccolo teaming up could stand a chance. Nappa crushed the warriors, but you knew Goku was coming and he'd just gotten off training with a god so he'd take him on. Even when Vegeta and Goku fight, the difference between the two isn't that huge. Freeza being so impossible WTF strong is constantly drilled through the reader's head. The moment Krillin and Gohan land and they feel his power, they go "NOPE". Most of the Namek arc consists of avoiding the shit out of him. Even Vegeta with his numerous powerups through the arc still avoids Freeza till he can't. King Kai constantly drills it in "You can't beat Freeza". Even once Goku shows up, it's abundantly clear that despite him being leagues ahead of everyone, Freeza's final form is STILL miles ahead of him.

Sure, he was surpassed, but it took the fulfilling of an ancient myth, and it's the buildup that makes Goku surpassing Frieza amazing. Because unlike other villains, the arc kept telling us it can't be done.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22680: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:39:08 AM

Yea, I know people like to bring up that Freiza's presence caused the power creep the series is notorious for, but it did make his status as the "strongest in the universe" more credible at the time.

He really was undefeatable and the entire arc reflected that as literally everything the heroes threw at him wasn't enough to bring him down. Like, if you never knew Goku was going to become a Super Saiyan, you were likely wondering "What the fuck can even kill this guy!?" when he tanked a freaking Spirit Bomb and still had enough energy to seriously injure Piccolo and kill Krillin.

Before Beerus showed up, he was the only villain who felt legit unstoppable before Super Saiyan.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#22681: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:49:55 AM

[up][up] Sometimes, it makes me wonder why Frieza even bothered having an army. He's clearly stronger than everyone working for him combined. Even after Vegeta got enough Zenkai boosts to shitstomp the Ginyu Force- Frieza's strongest henchmen- he still wasn't even close to having enough power to challenge Frieza himself. What exactly could Frieza's army accomplish that Frieza couldn't do with his own two hands?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22682: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:53:36 AM

Because he was a galactic conqueror and they tend to have lots of henchmen from the planets they've conquered :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#22683: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:54:32 AM

I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be Brilliant, but Lazy. Why do stuff yourself when you can force others to do your bidding?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22684: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:57:01 AM

Space is a huge place. You need men to help run a trade organization.

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#22685: Dec 20th 2016 at 8:58:28 AM

They can be at more than one place at a time, for starters. Even conquering and ruling a single planet alone is a shitton of work where you first have to go around the entire planet defeating anyone who opposes you and then have to constantly fight rebellions all the time unless you just blow everyone up, in which case you've just become the ruler of an empty rock. And that's not even going into how it literally takes months to travel between most planets. Assuming of course that you have someone capable of building, piloting and maintaining a spaceship to begin with. Freeza without an army would not be a universal conqueror. He would be some douchebag going from planet to planet killing people until he leaves.

edited 20th Dec '16 9:00:43 AM by Druplesnubb

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#22686: Dec 20th 2016 at 9:26:35 AM

Just because he could, doesn't mean he wanted to.

Freeza wanted to feel like a gangster, and you need henchmen for that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22687: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:15:19 AM

Yeah. We all know Frieza cemented the massive power creep that had been gathering in the series for a while now, so I can see why some might view him as a detriment.

On the other hand, he was set up as being impossible to beat by anyone ever, and he proved it up until Goku got Super Saiyan. I remember someone suggesting that, instead of Goku achieving the legend to beat him, and thus setting himself up as vastly beyond everyone else alongside Vegeta, Gohan and Trunks (and then Goten and Kid Trunks) they should have had them successfully use the Dragonballs to get everyone off the planet before he could kill them. Maybe still have the stuff with the Spirit Bomb, but Guru doesn't die right away so they can both use the Namek Dragonballs and Earth balls to pull that all off.

Frieza should not have been something they fought right away. They could have built up to the Super Saiyan Legend while he remains a potential threat that they all know they'll need to deal with.

That's not Toriyama's style however. See the villain, beat the villain, forget the villain. Although he then brought Frieza back for Resurrection F, showing he is willing to come up with ways to power up characters to be threats to the heroes.

Hmmm. Lost my train of thought.

Wait. Got it. Maybe the problem isn't Frieza, but how Toriyama's usual style with the villains didn't suit him.

One Strip! One Strip!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#22688: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:23:39 AM

Ah, thanks for the elaboration there Saiga.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22689: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:27:13 AM

Numbah 5

It's Beerus as previously hinted at.

FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#22690: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:27:26 AM

@Rob: Honestly, I feel like that distinction goes to Nappa first.

Consider; Z Warriors are told that in some time these two schmucks will appear, each stronger than the guy who Goku died to kill, so to say. So they go to Kami's lookout, get subjected to this crazy new training regimen... and when Nappa shows up, he mops the floor with Tien, Chiaotzu, Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan despite that, at the same time, at the cost of only losing his armor, killing three of these all of his own.

Sure, Goku then proceeds to mop the floor with him, but that's Goku. Frieza (and his goons) were just rubbing it in when it comes to powercreeping.

edited 20th Dec '16 10:27:53 AM by FergardStratoavis

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22691: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:38:00 AM

[up]

You may have a point. Maybe, instead of being Vegeta's boss, Frieza could be a rival Planet Broker who the Saiyans are at war with or something. I don't know.

Dragonball is an incredible thing: a gag adventure series that became martial arts/supernatural/science fiction/gag adventure series. It worked out well for something that had little if any planning, but I can't help but wonder if Toriyama wasn't playing to his strengths at the time. Though then again, maybe you shouldn't limit yourself to one thing either.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22692: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:54:56 AM

I don't have much take on Frieza being Number 1, but I do agree with Saiga on Piccolo Jr.. If what by and large defines you as a memorable and great character is the vast majority of the time the character wasn't a villain, then they shouldn't even be on a list like this.

I'd say the same about Vegeta, and maybe even Buu, but they'd still be on because their time as villains actually is heavily defining of them in ways Jr's time isn't.

Really, what this list is about is kind of vague. It's not a favorites list even though who they like factors in, it's not an effective villains list even though that can factor in positively or negatively, hell, it's not even really an influence list because how many people even remember who Hirudegarn(?) is?

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#22693: Dec 20th 2016 at 10:57:21 AM

You know,the Creation-Destruction thing feels more silly than complex or deep.Maybe I'm missing something.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#22694: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:00:36 AM

[up][up] I'd say it's a combination of all the above, really. They probably chose Hirudegarn because by that point, they had exhausted most of the characters they felt had actually made a substantial impact.

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22695: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:02:46 AM

[up]Yeah, but some of it feels self-contradictory. Which is fine, they never claimed this was definitive or unbiased but still.

I mean, Babidi and Dabura should have more going for them than Hirudegarn, because, again, more people actually know who they are and they aren't just personalityless monsters.

edited 20th Dec '16 11:04:34 AM by LSBK

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#22696: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:06:21 AM

It is a Top Villains not best. They say when they started the countdown all the criteria they used. Based on that and the list so far it makes sense for Freeza to be 1.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22697: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:40:43 AM

I should watcH BOG sometime. Beerus is indeed a delight.

I have a message from another time...
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22698: Dec 20th 2016 at 11:58:57 AM

Battle of Gods is probably the best Dragon Ball movie I've bothered to watch and Beerus is pretty fun so I get it.

I think they might be giving too much credit to the complexity of his job and work though. If he actually cared it would be one thing, but it only seems like he even slightly cares about his job until Super, I think. So saying there's a conflict between him doing his job and the heroes trying to save the world doesn't really work for me.

edited 20th Dec '16 4:30:04 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22699: Dec 20th 2016 at 12:16:10 PM

Yeah. I get the feeling his job is mostly an excuse to be honest.

He was gonna destroy the world just due to not getting Pudding, and we know that even at his best, he's incredibly petty.

There's not much grey to Beerus, even if he's willing to bend the rules.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22700: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:27:45 PM

No Beerus is still pretty grey, just not for the reasons they stated. Rather than it being his "job" to destroy, he's just petty and childish but with the power and authority to lord it over anyone that's not Whis and even he just pokes jabs at him for it.

He's pretty lazy when it comes to his job and mostly uses it as a pretext to destroy things he doesn't like. Not that he doesn't take his job seriously mind you, but he'd much rather slack off and eat sweets than play the god he's supposed to be. Which is why the moments when he actually does act like a god is both awesome as it is chilling, see when he deleted Zamasu from existence.

That said, I like Beerus because of how much of a grey character he is; he really isn't on the heroes` side and only puts up with them so he can mooch food off of them and or use them to get something done like fighting in a tournament. Beyond that, he doesn't actually care and he'd probably destroy them if he felt like it or if they ever ran out of food for him to eat.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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