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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22651: Dec 19th 2016 at 8:51:16 PM

Frieza was stronger than Goku though in his Gold form, after fourth months of training and barely mastering the damn thing. Compare that to Goku who spent a decade after Namek just to get up to a level where he could rival Majin Buu. I don't care what you say, that's character shilling on Frieza's part for him to be able to even get that far.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22652: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:06:17 PM

It's not lame, he just can't fight...

...He's their martial arts teacher... How cannot he fight? o_O

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22653: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:10:59 PM

He never fights...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22654: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:24:08 PM

[up][up][up] You don't have to care what I say, it's literally in the movie; you can say what you want about that and it is indeed stupid, but the fact is it didn't lead to anything significant. It's like Freeza went on a rampage of destruction like Broly did. He outpaced Goku for a while before he turned it around.

Like...I don't understand how you can call that "shilling" in the sense that it makes Freeza seem so powerful.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22655: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:44:42 PM

Because, before Super fucked with the power scaling even further, Golden Frieza was more than 70% of Beerus' power; he only lost against Goku at all because he never trained in the form enough to deal with the energy drain. If it wasn't for that, he would have killed Goku and Vegeta, and proved himself the third most powerful being in the entire universe, only behind Beerus and Whis; his lust for revenge screwed him over, but even before the energy drain started, he was still number 3 in the universe.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
superboy313 Since: May, 2015
#22656: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:53:25 PM

Who wants to see Frieza and Cell form their own club in Hell? They dub it the Anti-Goku Club; consisting of villains who were killed by Goku. Of course it would consist of the filler footage of Hell in the Buu Saga.

Also, which future characters do you see Vegeta throwing dog treats at?

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#22657: Dec 19th 2016 at 9:57:22 PM

[up][up]Yeah but that's just numbers going up. It doesn't actually mean anything unless he does something impressive with them, which he didn't.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#22658: Dec 19th 2016 at 11:16:17 PM

[up][up]It seems to only happen to characters whom he beheads, and I think we've gotten all three at this point.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22659: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:22:53 AM

I wouldn't except so. It's not bad enough to be a reason to demote him, and it can't improve things for a guy who was already in the top spot.

the fuck it isn't

I know it's inevitable for TFS' list but in a perfect world it'd be nice if they actually acknowledged the horribly negative impact he had on the series

Freeza is a damn tumour.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#22660: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:30:12 AM

I'm kinda interested to hear you elaborate on that, Saiga.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#22661: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:40:39 AM

Going from 180000 to 120 million in a single arc is kinda cancerous?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22662: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:44:22 AM

Drastic power scaling, transformations, mostly ki blast fights...

The Triple Trouble...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#22663: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:45:43 AM

...Well when you put it that way.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22664: Dec 20th 2016 at 1:48:51 AM

When Randomness puts it that way, it means nothing...

It's just a guessing game.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#22665: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:26:56 AM

...He's their martial arts teacher... How cannot he fight? o_O
He's probably just too old by now.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#22666: Dec 20th 2016 at 4:50:32 AM

He is more of a douchebag than anything tho.

I really dig Tenshinhan taking over the Crane school in the Online timeline and making it respectable again, while Krillin takes over the Turtle school.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22667: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:33:47 AM

It's funnyhearing Frieza being called a tumor when that's usually a term reserved for Broly [lol]

edited 20th Dec '16 6:34:03 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22668: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:38:07 AM

I'm kinda interested to hear you elaborate on that, Saiga.

Because despite the series moving on from him as they did with any other villain, the franchise as a whole just can't let him go and stop living in the "glory days" of the late Namek arc/sometimes Android arc. The disproportionate amount of exposure he gets is a huge constraining factor and it leads to ridiculous shit like Resurrection F where he needs to be revealed to be stronger than the characters who came after him and upstaged him, despite that notion being so un-Dragon Ball.

I'll never fathom why Freeza became seen as this insurmountable figure that should not have been surpassed when he was dealt with like any other villain in the manga. Even his claim of "strongest in the universe" was originally used for Vegeta before Freeza was invented and retconned to having existed all along.

When you look at Freeza's role in the manga compared to the attention he gets out of it, honestly, he's nowhere near as important as his hype would have you believe. He's literally an expy of Vegeta, taken to more ridiculous extremes with his horrendous power inflation and completely unnecessary transformations.

The fact that Freeza is just a copy of Vegeta's original concept is made less notable by the fact that Vegeta was retconned into being a much more fleshed out character once Freeza entered the picture. But prior to the Namek arc being planned, Freeza and Vegeta's characters are near identical: both extraordinary powerful warriors who run a planet sharking business who are uniquely gifted and titled "the strongest in the universe". Both seek the Dragon Balls for immortality so they can continue their business forever. Even his fight with Goku copies some key moments from Vegeta vs Goku ("I have to take the Kaio-ken higher!" > Kaio-ken Kamehameha > Unsuccessful Spirit Bomb).

And once he's dead, he's treated the same way as other villains: he's surpassed and moved on from. He does get referenced later in the series, because the series does acknowledge that he was a well known entity, but it's always about building up someone else.

The fact that he's responsible for Goku's origin/the series is also not as important as it is frequently made out to me. For the first sixteen volumes of the manga where Goku came from didn't matter at all. And even after his origin is revealed, Goku learns some importance lessons about who he is and what it means to be Saiyan, but it's not the most important thing to Goku's arc at all - far from it.

Crediting the whole series to him doesn't make much sense to me when he was retconned into having that significance later in the series and treated as an afterthought after he was killed.

Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#22669: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:42:37 AM

I note that they did include some of Picollo's early DBZ moments as part of why Jr. made it so far, since the development was key to contrasting the initial nature of his personality, so I kinda feel like Vegeta might beat out Freeza for the #1 spot, if they include his various important actions post the Saiyan saga.

edited 20th Dec '16 6:42:54 AM by Alfric

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22670: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:47:31 AM

I'd say most of that is simply the result of him being so popular after the fact and the attention he gets is a testament to that. Even if he is just a copy of Saiyan arc Vegeta, he differs in the fact that the latter survives his arc and becomes a much more fleshed out character as a result while Frieza is the first villain to turn down Goku's mercy and had to be dealt with even after Goku made it clear he had no further interest.

Combine that with specials like Bardock and the Cooler movies then you can see why Frieza tends to stand out in people's heads the most. And TFS` list isn't just a popularity contest but based on their status and overall influence on the franchise; even if he Frieza was retconned into that position, it still counts.

Not that I don't see your point, but it's not like somebody just woke up and decided "Man, Frieza is the greatest character ever."

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22671: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:48:38 AM

I feel like Piccolo Jnr shouldn't have made the list at all. He was a crappy villain in his own arc, even though he had a good fight with Goku at the end he was very soundly beaten and not very intimidating, and the very next arc redeems him. Everything that made Piccolo a good character came from becoming one of the good guys, which should make him a candidate for any list other than this one.

[up] Yeah, but I don't think it should be "best" villains if they're going to go with overall influence instead of positive influence. Freeza's overexposure has done nothing good for the franchise, and it has just meant other opportunities have been missed at various points in order to indulge in more Freeza.

edited 22nd Dec '16 4:57:16 AM by Saiga

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22672: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:53:26 AM

Freeza's overexposure has done nothing good for the franchise

Dunno about that, it gave us one of the better movies (Bardock, Father of Goku).

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22673: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:56:01 AM

[up][up]But you can't really say that with certainty because we don't know what other opportunities could have happened if they did do that. And I don't see Frieza's influence on the series as a negative, or at least anymore of a negative than say, Beerus being retconned for much of the same reasons.

edited 20th Dec '16 6:56:48 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#22674: Dec 20th 2016 at 6:57:48 AM

Cool opinion Saiga, but gotta disagree.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22675: Dec 20th 2016 at 7:06:54 AM

I guess I would, in fact, rate Cell or Vegeta over Freeza. Which one depends on whether one considers everything the character does, or only what they do as a direct antagonist. And that question really depends on the person making the list; there are arguments for bkth.

I have a message from another time...

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