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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22576: Dec 17th 2016 at 5:34:49 PM

I hated that line because it shifted the blame on Kuririn, especially Piccolo being the one to call it out like he can do no wrong.

And it only works better in TFS because they made Kuririn far stupider in a way that has no basis in canon. That kind of impulsive "let's bring him here for no reason!" would not fit anyone in canon making that an incredibly flawed comparison.

What Piccolo did was certainly stupid, but understandable given the circumstances. Freeza was closing in, and Kuririn/Gohan did not know what to do. Piccolo didn't know how strong Freeza was, Gohan/Kuririn only knew that he'd become stronger and was confident. Only Nail, who gauged both their powers, knew Piccolo would be slaughtered.

Piccolo's decision was motivated by two things: a desire to protect Gohan and a desire to avenge the Namekians. He wasn't thinking things through, and Gohan and Kuririn didn't have a plan. To act like they're going to think things through in the way you described isn't realistic at all. Despite the risk, they would have thought their chances with Piccolo there are much better than fighting Freeza alone.

They were willing to let Vegeta have immortality even though he could just kill him after. They were all desperate.

Yeah, I'm not half as willing to offer leniency due to desperation of this particular situation. Every single person involved, Dende excepted, knows that Earth only has Dragon Balls if Piccolo is alive. It is literally the entire reason they're on Namek. They all know it pretty f*cking intimately. It is not an obscure fact, it's not some deep secret, it's the writing on the wall.

Piccolo was suicidally reckless in throwing his life into Frieza's thresher five seconds after being revived. There was nothing good that could possibly come of it. It was a thoroughly pointless gesture that, were it not for the grace of Nail, would have simply gotten everyone perma-killed. It was a 100% f*ckstupid decision.

And Krillin and Gohan, who are also aware of this fact, made a 100% f*ckstupid decision to enable Piccolo's throbbing arrogance-boner. The Frieza arc nearly ended in TPK of all of Earth's defenders because every single person involved in this decision got a sudden attack of Idiot Ball.

It was mindlessly, belligerently, pointlessly batf*ck STUPID for them to send Piccolo off to die immediately after his revival. And I'm not willing to accept, "Well, they didn't know how tough Frieza is," because they did. Kaio-sama's been saying it from the beginning. It's just that nobody cares what he has to say. Piccolo wants to prove how big his dick is and everyone's going to shut up and let him.

I'm also not willing to accept, "Well, they were desperate and Frieza was closing in," because they could have just done what they wind up doing anyway: wished for an evac.

This was Piccolo's "Vegeta lets Cell achieve Perfect Form" moment. His "Goku and Vegeta break the Potara" moment. His moment of completely unconscionable stupidity in which he nearly gets everybody killed out of a misguided desire to prove he's the hottest shit around.

Yes, TFS's version shifts the blame to Krillin, but I can accept that because in going along with Piccolo's plan, he already carries a portion of the blame anyway.

EDIT: Like, Piccolo even outright brings up the fact that Shenron will be restored once he's alive, so it's not like nobody was thinking about Earth's Dragon Balls. It was an important piece of the discussion on what to do with Porunga's three wishes.

Had Piccolo not been so desperate to throw away everyone's hopes, they could have just been like, "Wish 1, Piccolo. Wish 2, Chiaotzu, since Shenron can't. Wish 3, GTFO!"

edited 17th Dec '16 5:45:43 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22577: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:02:34 PM

Bringing Piccolo to Namek is the stupidest decision anyone in the arc makes

Actually for that I vote Vegeta losing his balls (both figuratively and literally) when he senses the Ginyu force arriving, and making a mad dash for the Dragonball, ensuring Ginyu and Co will find them, forgetting he can hide his own power level. Vegeta basically torpedoes his own victory.

And yes "He knew they'd bring more advanced scouter" and what not, but when you can put your power level so low it's indistinguishable from the local life forms, wtf are those gonna do. Ginyu's gonna go inspect living thing on the planet?

Had Piccolo not been so desperate to throw away everyone's hopes, they could have just been like, "Wish 1, Piccolo. Wish 2, Chiaotzu, since Shenron can't. Wish 3, GTFO!"

To be fair, all that does is guarantee Frieza shows up on earth 2 days later and blows it up. Not like he hadn't figured where they were from and wouldn't be able to add up 2 and 2 together >_>

edited 17th Dec '16 6:05:10 PM by Ghilz

Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#22578: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:07:31 PM

Wishing Piccolo over is still stupider. You could at least argue that Vegeta was too panicked to think straight.

edited 17th Dec '16 6:52:25 PM by Karxrida

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22579: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:18:19 PM

To be fair, all that does is guarantee Frieza shows up on earth 2 days later and blows it up. Not like he hadn't figured where they were from and wouldn't be able to add up 2 and 2 together >_>

Not without knowing they're from Earth, he doesn't. Who's going to tell him? Vegeta? He's not exactly the "drop to his knees and plead for mercy" type.

Vegeta wouldn't know Piccolo came back to life anyway. For all he knows, they used the wish to bail - because nobody knew Porunga offered three until Dende brought it up - and that's it. Neither Earth nor Namek have Dragon Balls anymore and Vegeta, the only person who knew the Earthlings' home planet, had his lungs ripped out by Frieza in retribution.

And then nobody from the PTO ever bothered Earth again.

edited 17th Dec '16 6:20:02 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22580: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:23:38 PM

But they knew Vegeta when to Earth, and he came back in his own pod.

You're telling me that these things don't have Black Boxes or travelling logs that tell where they go?

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22581: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:28:22 PM

Okay that's all bullshit.

YES, it was stupid. But from their perspective, the scenario you described is not an inevitability. They don't know Freeza's strength from Kaio, don't be ridiculous. What they know is what Kaio thinks, and Kaio has been wrong before. He's not infallible. He just admitted to Goku he completely misunderstood the Saiyan's strength before. And it turns out later Kaio didn't actually know anything close to Freeza's full power either. Don't act like the characters would default to his opinion.

No-one truly understood. "Every single person involved" three people were involved in making that decision, one of them was five, the other was emotionally comprised and the third went with it because the first idea Piccolo had was legitimately a good one. Even then, "no good can from it"? Not from their perspective. Piccolo's assistance could be the difference between life or death for the rest of them. You're using way too much hindsight here to be that definitive.

From their perspective, as dangerous as it is to bring Piccolo, they needed any help they could get. And Piccolo has never been one to run away and hide to stay safe. He knew how horribly stacked the odds were even if Goku and Raditz teamed up against him (he was shaking in fear after seeing Raditz once), the whole reason he died in the first place was because he wouldn't back down from the Saiyans. Hell, if Gohan or Kuririn had died in his place, Vegeta may have succeeded in destroying the Earth and then we've got a permadead main cast because Piccolo wasn't there. The characters are presented with too many unknowns, and it would be completely out of character for Piccolo to keep himself out of danger.

Yes, the third wish to GTFO is the "smartest" decision. But you're acting like it was an obvious wish to the characters, when they were all panicking and didn't know what to do. Kaio only thought of using the D Bs for that later when he had time to plan.

But I have less of an issue with taking problem with the scene (as long as it doesn't reach single issue wonk levels of complaining) and thinking that TFS' scene works better.

The only reason it works is because it's played for comedy, and Kuririn's abridged personality is completely re-written from the start to make him the kind of character who does those things. It's actually stupider than the original version because Kuririn doesn't even have a motivation to do that, but it works because Kuririn was made so much stupider in general.

Comparing that to the original is like apples and oranges. The context is too different, and there is no way TFS' scene would make any sense if it was meant to be serious or accurate to the characters. All it really gains is making Piccolo look better, which isn't really warranted.

[up][up] Freeza already knows they're Earthlings. And he was able to find Earth just fine afterwards.

edited 17th Dec '16 6:36:12 PM by Saiga

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22582: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:33:18 PM

Not without knowing they're from Earth, he doesn't. Who's going to tell him? Vegeta? He's not exactly the "drop to his knees and plead for mercy" type.

Dodoria figured out they were earthlings the moment he saw Vegeta. I will assume Frieza makes the same deduction. Dodoria isn't Sherlock Holmes.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#22583: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:47:54 PM

Even if King Kai doesn't know Frieza's full power, just what he does know is probably enough to respond to Piccolo's assertion that he can probably take Frieza with "lmao".

And Saiga I don't know why you're getting so hung up about changed character traits and accuracy and stuff. No one is suggesting the TFS scene should have been transplanted into the original show. If things were changed there around the entire rest of the series would have to be different. But within the confines of a comedy series that has to show certain events happening people prefer one person being stupid and that being acknowledged than three people being stupid and it never being acknowledged.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#22584: Dec 17th 2016 at 6:58:05 PM

In terms of changing the reason from Piccolo's argoance to Krillin's dumb idea. The TFS Piccolo is the serious Straight Man of the cast. He is the one to retort the stupidity of everyone else and that switch kept some consistency as well as a really funny gag.

In Abridgeding Comedy comes first.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22585: Dec 17th 2016 at 7:02:16 PM

YES, it was stupid. But from their perspective, the scenario you described is not an inevitability. They don't know Freeza's strength from Kaio, don't be ridiculous. What they know is what Kaio thinks, and Kaio has been wrong before. He's not infallible. He just admitted to Goku he completely misunderstood the Saiyan's strength before. And it turns out later Kaio didn't actually know anything close to Freeza's full power either. Don't act like the characters would default to his opinion.

Of course they wouldn't. Why would they listen to people who know better than them? Dumbf*ckedly assuming they're the toughest shit around and anyone who says otherwise is just a stupid fool who cannot fathom how awesome they are is a recurring character trait. That doesn't make it stop being stupid of them to do, though. Nobody's ever accused the protagonists of making good choices.

No-one truly understood. "Every single person involved" three people were involved in making that decision, one of them was five, the other was emotionally comprised and the third went with it because the first idea Piccolo had was legitimately a good one. Even then, "no good can from it"? Not from their perspective. Piccolo's assistance could be the difference between life or death for the rest of them. You're using way too much hindsight here to be that definitive.

No, it couldn't. The last time they saw Piccolo, he couldn't even take on Nappa. They have no idea how much he's improved since then if he even has at all. Meanwhile, Gohan and Krillin's powers have unreasonably skyrocketed.

The Piccolo they knew would have been hilariously roflstomped by Dodoria.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22586: Dec 17th 2016 at 7:02:58 PM

[up][up][up][up] What's more, Freeza knows that they're Earthlings by the time he fights Nail at the latest. Vegeta also says to Goku earlier if they leave the planet, Freeza will find them and kill them.

The only reason they treat the mass evacuation as an option later is because they think Freeza will be caught in Namek's explosion.

[up] Knows better than them? They don't even know Kaio. Piccolo's first impressions of him are that he's a fool, in fact, the first he does is easily dupe Kaio into training him by promising not to go to Namek. How exactly do you expect Piccolo to trust that? Not to mention how often Kaio has been wrong before.

As for Gohan and Kuririn, they have faith in Piccolo. He says he's powered up a lot, by Nail's admission he has, they've just seen the absurd power ups Vegeta and Goku went through, etc. And they still don't know how powerful Freeza is even in his first form. Kuririn, Gohan and Vegeta combined are actually pretty close to first form Freeza's battle power and they don't even know he's that strong.

They're not comparing Piccolo vs Nappa to Freeza. Kuririn openly says Piccolo must have become a lot stronger.

edited 17th Dec '16 7:06:41 PM by Saiga

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22587: Dec 17th 2016 at 7:29:56 PM

The only reason they treat the mass evacuation as an option later is because they think Freeza will be caught in Namek's explosion.

To be correct, that's not it (Freeza outright says he'll survive the blast when he makes it), but the original plan is for Goku to evacuate with them, and since Goku's been dominating the fight vs Freeza, him coming to Earth to get his ass kicked by Goku again isn't exactly a threat. King Kai's plan has the side benefit of saving most of the Nameks.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22588: Dec 17th 2016 at 7:53:40 PM

Kaio wasn't sure Goku could defeat 100% Freeza, and expecting Freeza to come after them defeats the entire point of leaving him out of the wish. Freeza surviving the explosion wasn't a sure thing, because even Freeza was worried about that possibility when it came to actually destroying it.

From Kaio's perspective, Freeza coming back is absolutely a threat.

Hell, from any perspective, if he's just left out in the universe somewhere who knows when he might toss a ki blast at Earth?

edited 17th Dec '16 7:54:33 PM by Saiga

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#22589: Dec 17th 2016 at 9:12:45 PM

It was mindlessly, belligerently, pointlessly batf*ck STUPID for them to send Piccolo off to die immediately after his revival. And I'm not willing to accept, "Well, they didn't know how tough Frieza is," because they did. Kaio-sama's been saying it from the beginning. It's just that nobody cares what he has to say. Piccolo wants to prove how big his dick is and everyone's going to shut up and let him.

That's shounen for ya. "I want to prove I'm badass by fighting the strong guy. What do you mean it's a bad idea! Fuck you, I'm gonna do it anyway! Augh, their power is too strong, and now I've accidentally and/or intentionally made the entire situation far worse!"

Ah, sweet Idiot Ball plot contrivance.

edited 17th Dec '16 9:13:10 PM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22590: Dec 17th 2016 at 9:14:25 PM

It's really not idiot ball. It's consistent to how he's handled every other problem and also not as clear to the characters as it is made out to be.

Kuririn was horribly outclassed against Vegeta, remove him from that fight and everyone dies.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22591: Dec 17th 2016 at 9:30:11 PM

Negative: Dragon Ball sure is a series about how teamwork helps the one guy get the kill of the arc.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22592: Dec 17th 2016 at 9:44:36 PM

Goku wasn't the one who got the final blow on Vegeta, if that's what you meant.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22593: Dec 18th 2016 at 9:33:26 AM

Funny coincidence that the day the androids take their spot on DB Cember is the day the news break that Android 17 will make a come back in Dragonball Super

I hope he's still a park ranger.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22594: Dec 18th 2016 at 9:57:30 AM

The promotional material shows him with an armband with the word 'Ranger' on it.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#22595: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:09:06 AM

Number 7.

Piccolo Jr.

Also, Rilldo possibly confirmed. Or that was a joke. I honestly can't tell.

This song needs more love.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#22596: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:20:35 AM

That was a clear joke.

So it's fairly obvious now who'll be in the remaining six positions: Beerus, Freeza, Cell, Buu, King Piccolo, and Vegeta.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
IceAnt573 Forever not amused. Since: May, 2015
Forever not amused.
#22597: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:27:56 AM

I'm really surprised Babidi and Dabura just did not make the list at all. Babidi did have the Majin curse and allowed one final Goku vs. Vegeta fight.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22598: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:29:41 AM

[up] That's the thing though, while Babidi was a catalyst for a lot of what happened, he actually didn't do much personally. He's kind of a lesser!Dr. Gero in that regard. And all Dabura did was fight Gohan to a draw and then get bodied by Majin Buu.

I'm pretty confident Beerus will be #6.

edited 18th Dec '16 10:31:24 AM by Lionheart0

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#22599: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:35:24 AM

No Dabura and Babidi surprises me. I wouldn't say they're exactly top ten material but I don't see how they're worse or made less of an impact than a few rampaging mindless brute movie villains who did make the cut. I have never even heard of Hildegarn or whatever.

edited 18th Dec '16 10:35:44 AM by Arha

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#22600: Dec 18th 2016 at 10:49:49 AM

Mhm. Sad news for Babidi and the Crane School, this entry.


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