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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22301: Dec 13th 2016 at 4:37:40 PM

Being silly is a plus when it's called for. When we're not supposed to be taking it too seriously.

But SSJ 4 tends to come out only at times when GT wants to be taken deadly serious. When all the comedic elements have fallen by the wayside and everything that happens is supposed to be joyless and brutal. If Goku and later Vegeta have assumed this form, it means the fun has been pushed aside and shit's gotten real.

The Buu Saga didn't really do that. Even when Gotenks and Goku assumed the Super Saiyan 3 form, you still weren't supposed to be taking it that seriously. Buu was an inherently silly villain, and that made even the serious fights with him more light-hearted than they were with, say, Baby or Omega Shenron.

SSJ 4 is even more ridiculous than SSJ 3, but was intended to be taken much more seriously than SSJ 3 was, and that's where it falls apart.

edited 13th Dec '16 4:38:28 PM by TobiasDrake

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22302: Dec 13th 2016 at 4:40:30 PM

I think the silliness of SS 4 is being overstated.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22303: Dec 13th 2016 at 4:43:14 PM

Bright pink fur, punk rock hair, and thick eyeshadow is really silly. They look like they're trying to start an edgy metal band.

Vegeta even sprouts a pair of tight leather pants when he transforms.

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22305: Dec 13th 2016 at 4:50:38 PM

The Punk rock hair is true of most saiyan eve. And hell, it's got nothing on SSJ Trunks Hair. Seriously, WTF is that?

And the pink is GT being animated by idiots, as it's been shown, it's intended to be a darker red.

I like the ties to the Oozaru. Especially when Z went out of its ways to ignore it after the Saiyan saga. It ties into their first power up. Same way Frieza's last form works: After getting bigger and more and more ridiculous, his final form is... a small alien that's visually unimpressive. It calls back to his original form.

Is some parts of the design too 90s? Yeah. Sure. But I still find it hell of a more inspired "Ultimate Saiyan" form than "Super Saiyan only now he's Blue!" "And Lithe Goku but red". Especially after they spend an entire movie / arc building up this "Super Saiyan God"

edited 13th Dec '16 4:51:32 PM by Ghilz

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22306: Dec 13th 2016 at 4:59:27 PM

Why are the pants a problem? Those are just the pants they were already wearing...but grown back and bigger in Karrot's case.

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22308: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:02:53 PM

I mean, do you want Goku fighting in the nude every time he uses it? I mean, this is suppose to be Dragon Ball, not Free!; this series has always made people keep their pants, even when they shouldn't. See Goku still having clothes at all even though Frieza dunked him into magma...near the core of Namek.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22309: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:03:15 PM

Why are the pants a problem? Those are just the pants they were already wearing...but grown back and bigger in Karrot's case.

And changed color and gained new boots?

I think the clothesbeam theory makes sense.

Also the first time he turned SSJ 4 from oozaru, which destroys his clothes. And always has.

[up] This is more true of Z than Dragonball.

edited 13th Dec '16 5:04:19 PM by Ghilz

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22310: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:04:35 PM

I mean, the trailers for Dragon Ball Heroes showed Goku's and Vegeta's shirts ripping apart when their Super Saiyan 4 forms were debuted.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22311: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:05:07 PM

They didn't change color...he just got a different belt.

Full hairy ape man he should have been.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22312: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:08:24 PM

The Golden Oozaru was a cool form. That one, I actually did like. It felt like a natural culmination of the Saiyans' two transformation abilities.

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
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#22313: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:10:31 PM

Dunno, considering how a saiyan's hair got longer when they went SSJ, I was disappointed the golden oozaru didn't look like a giant golden spiky tribble with a tail.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22314: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:12:33 PM

Their hair didn't get longer, karrot and Trunks' hair just stood up...

Veggie and Gohand's hair stayed the same...

edited 13th Dec '16 5:13:11 PM by randomness4

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22315: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:13:33 PM

I mean, it being just a fusion of Great Ape and Super Saiyan would have made it completely useless; it would just be 25% stronger than Super Saiyan 3, and we already saw that gaining a tail takes a lot of the strain from the latter away.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#22316: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:13:33 PM

I mean the later SSJ (2 and 3) :-P

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22317: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:15:52 PM

I mean, it being just a fusion of Great Ape and Super Saiyan would have made it completely useless; it would just be 25% stronger than Super Saiyan 3, and we already saw that gaining a tail takes a lot of the strain from the latter away.

If it doesn't bleed power the way Super Saiyan 3 does, then +25% AND no power drain is quite an improvement.

Like, Kaioken x4 is just 1/3 stronger than x3, but it made all the difference in Goku's Beam Struggle with Vegeta.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#22318: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:16:46 PM

[up][up]Just SSJ3...

edited 13th Dec '16 5:17:05 PM by randomness4

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22319: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:20:33 PM

Not when the battle powers started to get as high as they would logically be in the Buu Saga. Plus, again, we saw Goku use Super Saiyan 3 just fine once he got his tail back, in a body that was handling the form even worse than his adult body did. Hell, we see Goku use it with minor issues back against Beerus in Battle of Gods, and he didn't even have the excuse of having a tail at that point.

There's also the issue of, you know, the whole primal instinct of pure destruction thing that Great Ape had going for it, that was amplified even further by Super Saiyan being mixed with it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22320: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:23:52 PM

Golden oozaru is one thing, but as any powerfologist can tell you, true power is only achieved by crossing the bishonen line.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22321: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:33:34 PM

How high the battle powers get is merely a question of how high the writer wants to put them. Whether +25% is worthless or game-changing is entirely at the writer's discretion.

Similarly, Goku being able to better regulate Super Saiyan 3 once he has his tail back is just something GT's writers added to downplay its primary drawback. The form as it exists in the manga and Z anime is of limited utility; any foe that can fight evenly with it is guaranteed to win, especially when Goku can't even draw on the full x400 power due to the power drain exceeding his ability to charge up his ki.

With Super Saiyan 3, either you overclass the foe so much that you're able to destroy them in seconds, or you lose. It cannot handle sustained combat, which is why Pure Buu ultimately prevailed over it despite being theoretically weaker.

Consequentially, there is so much room to improve, even without resorting to the, "Like, SO MUCH more powerful, you can't even imagine" well that both GT and Battle of Gods ultimately went to.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22322: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:36:14 PM

I mean, do you want Goku fighting in the nude every time he uses it? I mean, this is suppose to be Dragon Ball

We literally saw Goku's prepubescent penis in the very first chapter.

And after he got his tail cut off the first time he turned Great Ape.

We did not, however, see his giant monkey penis while he was a Great Ape. Just a bunch of fur there.

Super Saiyan 4 could do that. Just red fur everywhere.

edited 13th Dec '16 5:40:36 PM by unnoun

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22323: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:39:39 PM

And like I said, Battle of Gods made it seem like Goku had a better handle over Super Saiyan 3 than he did against Buu.

And no, Goku can draw out all of that form's power, because that limit doesn't exist. What stopped him from doing so was a combination of the damage he was taking that entire fight and the fact he waited too long to actually try, as exhaustion both stamina and ki-wise was starting to set in at that point, so forcing his body to try to reach that power just exhausted him even more. If he had gone all-out at the very beginning of the fight, then he probably would have won without having to rely on that Super Spirit Bomb plan.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22324: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:44:52 PM

If they're more scared of showing his dick when he's adult than when he was a kid, when he transforms back they could just show him from behind, or from the waist up.

...Except it's GT, so when he transforms back he'd be a kid, which they're fine with, apparently.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22325: Dec 13th 2016 at 5:45:12 PM

In Battle of Gods, Goku was a Super Saiyan 3 for, like, five seconds. Beerus plowed him into the ground so fast that the power drain wouldn't have had a chance to become relevant anyway.

And Goku was trying to go all-out from the beginning. That was the problem. He couldn't pull together his full power with Buu wailing on him, so Vegeta stepped in to buy him time so he could store it up. But the power drain exceeded his ability to charge, so instead of powering up to full, he instead wound up completely drained and kicked out into base.

Vegeta accuses him of sandbagging, but Goku corrects him. Goku intended from the start of the fight to hit Buu with everything he had and overwhelm him with the sheer force of Super Saiyan 3. He just couldn't.

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