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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22176: Dec 12th 2016 at 2:34:14 PM

I mean, the reason Goku going Super Saiyan and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 carry such impact is because of the circumstances that proceed them.

Frieza being who he is and everything else being futile against him, together with what he's done to the Saiyans and Namekians (and countless hundred of other species) is why it's supposed to be awe inspiring and awesome.

Gohan surpassing his father being the only one who can defeat Cell is carries a lot of weight with a lot of people.

YMMV on if you prefer that to stuff like the Vegeta fight but I wouldn't really call it dropping the ball. It's just a different take.

Now things with Buu...yeah, that got really meandering and out o hand.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22177: Dec 12th 2016 at 3:15:42 PM

Freeza and Cell are responsible for two of the franchises shining and most definitive moments. There's a reason they're the first two villains that come to mind for everyone.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22178: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:22:08 PM

On Raditz: I am still completely dumbfounded that people think that blood ties would be important to Goku. He says they don't right to Raditz' face, and then goes on to say being a Saiyan doesn't matter to him either to Nappa and Vegeta. That's one of the biggest themes in the Saiyan arc!

So it's definitely an intentional juxtaposition. Even Bardock is not meant to be this super-awesome guy, but Shuiesha kind of dropped the ball on that by giving him Wolverine Publicity later in the franchise. Aside from an issue of giving him a large battle power, his original special hammered home how ineffective he was in the grand scheme of things. He accomplished less than Raditz did!

Raditz' connection to Goku wasn't the motivation for him going to Earth. It was the justification for him knowing and remembering something from so long ago. He wouldn't go visit his brother unless he needed something, but remembering where his brother went is a lot less weird than remembering where a random nobody was sent ~25 years ago.

You change Raditz' relation, you do lose something - Goku outright confronting a family member and proving who he grew up with is more important to him than blood ties. He outright disowns Raditz.

No, I don't think it's the kind of detail that Toriyama would have excised because Toriyama killed Raditz in his first appearance. He clearly knew that he wasn't the big bad of that arc, let alone an important character of that series. It also wouldn't be like Toriyama's writing style to have that kind of thing matter.

See, the issue with that is that Goku rejecting his heritage doesn't mean shit because there's zero drama around it. We're given no reason to assume Goku would care about his heritage, nor any reason to assume his heritage cares about him. The conversation is basically,

  • Raditz: I'm your brother!
  • Goku: I don't care!
  • Raditz: Good! Neither do I!
  • Goku: Good! Let's fight!

It goes nowhere and means nothing and hasn't the slightest effect on anyone. Goku rejecting his brother is a pointless moment because there's never been a single moment where he might want what Raditz represented in the first place.

He's never longed for his biological family. He's never wondered where he came from. And he wasn't, even for the slightest moment, tempted by Raditz's arrival. Rejecting Raditz is a payoff to a plot point that never had a moment's build-up in the first place, and that is what makes it an completely worthless, inconsequential character trait for Raditz.

Not caring about his race or biological family means about as much for Goku's character as him suddenly announcing that he despises opera would. That's cool, but no one cares, because no one has ever been given reason to believe Goku would be invested in the first place.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22179: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:28:36 PM

I mean, isn't the new canon that the Saiyans in general didn't care about blood ties and Bardock and Gin were unusual for settling down and having a stable family?

I know that wasn't anywhere near thought up when this first happens but it makes it even more meaningless retroactively.

Also, Goku at least does come to give a shit about being Saiyan so...

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22180: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:28:50 PM

See, the issue with that is that Goku rejecting his heritage doesn't mean shit because there's zero drama around it.

That's actually why I like it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22181: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:34:18 PM

This conversation reminds me of people getting annoyed with how characters in fiction who were adopted usually want to go on a journey to find their birth parents and have an identity crisis or something.

Like, yeah, a lot of people probably would like to find out, but for a lot of people it really doesn't change anything.

edited 12th Dec '16 4:37:28 PM by LSBK

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#22182: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:36:08 PM

In either case, though, the introduction of said birth parents is typically received with at least something more resounding than a solid, "Meh."

If the characters give zero shits about this plot point, then why should I? And if I shouldn't, then why is it even there?

That's precisely what makes Raditz being Goku's brother such a pointless plot point: because none of the characters care and nobody's decisions or behavior is affected by it in any way. It is met not even with scorn and derision but with complete apathy. It's just there to be there.

Which is why Goku rejecting Raditz is an orphaned payoff. It's the climax to a personal journey Goku never embarked on. A conclusion to a subplot that never existed. A resolution to a conflict that wasn't there to begin with. An answer to a question never asked.

edited 12th Dec '16 4:40:42 PM by TobiasDrake

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Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
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#22183: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:43:44 PM

It's also coz there's the The Law of Conservation of Detail. If you bring it up, the audience expects it to be important. Especially when it's in a media that otherwise doesn't do much in terms of world building. Dragonball doesn't really often bring up small useless details to make the world fleshed out, so it makes the times it happens stand out.

edited 12th Dec '16 4:44:21 PM by Ghilz

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22184: Dec 12th 2016 at 4:50:46 PM

I mean, doesn't Goku ask Yenma about Raditz when he gets brought to the Check-In Station by Kami?

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#22185: Dec 12th 2016 at 5:12:57 PM

Well, I'm willing to admit that my Baby prediction was wrong.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22186: Dec 12th 2016 at 5:59:46 PM

Still I do not think he should count for this list.

The specific reasons they gave for not including Super are that it's not over yet, and that it's all so recent that they have no idea what the actual reaction, reception, and impact will be.

Battle of Gods is a movie with a beginning, a middle, and an end, it came out in Japan in 2013, and in North America in 2014. Beerus is already a character that fans are aware of, and many like him. Since his introduction, he's been in all the video games and spin-offs. Notably, in the first Xenoverse, he and Broly were the only movie villains.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#22187: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:03:58 PM

Well, guess I was hoping too much for Baby being in the top 10, but almost making it past the halfway point is still impressive all things considered.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22188: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:16:06 PM

We're getting close to the main event here so out of those you expect to make the list, who would you be upset weren't in the top 10?

edited 12th Dec '16 6:16:21 PM by LSBK

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
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#22190: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:22:38 PM

I feel like the remaining peeps who might not make the top 10 are going to be the ones we aren't certain are going to make the list at all.

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#22191: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:54:32 PM

I'd honestly be kind of upset if the future versions of 17 and 18 don't make it in the top ten.

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22192: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:57:46 PM

We're getting close to the main event here so out of those you expect to make the list, who would you be upset weren't in the top 10?

Maybe the Ginyu Force because they are kind of fringe.

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#22193: Dec 12th 2016 at 6:59:31 PM

I don't know that I can say that any given placements would upset me. Their list doesn't invalidate my personal placements, nor do I have the right to begrudge them their choices. Just isn't worth it.

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#22194: Dec 12th 2016 at 7:21:33 PM

I mean, I'm still wondering why they don't use Super. I mean, they could totally add either Zamasu or Black to the list if they did.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22195: Dec 12th 2016 at 7:28:17 PM

I feel like they explained that pretty flatly. Anyway, even if they were using Super, Zamasu and Goku Black feel too new. How could you really judge their impact properly when they've only just been dealt with?

edited 12th Dec '16 8:33:27 PM by LSBK

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22196: Dec 12th 2016 at 7:39:22 PM

Double post.

But what [up][up][up][up] mentioned seems to be a common problem with this stuff: people keep treating this as if this is some super objective end all be all list, and that it's supposed to be a list of best villains.

They've admitted at the beginning this is incredibly subjective and not perfect (something that should go without saying but good on them) and if this were a "best villains list" it's clear a lot of the ones already on it would be there. I mean, Broly is exhibit A on that front.

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
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#22197: Dec 12th 2016 at 8:23:59 PM

I feel like they explained that pretty flatly. Anyway, even if they were using Super Zamasu and Goku Black feel too new. How could you really judge their impact properly when they've only just been dealt with.

Honestly, and I know you'd be right to tell me I'd be overzealous to judge things, I'd say if they included Super, Zamasu and Goku Black would definitely make the list. And likely be in the top 12. Even without their impact being known.

First of all they worked great as a duo. Zamasu's level of preparedness and genre savvyness is refreshing. The same way the gave points to Garlic Jr.for getting his wish, Zamasu has him beat. Also the fact they break the usual mold of "We need to overpower him somehow" by forcing the heroes to think outside the box. They bring back the Mafuba for pete's sake. And no one's mentioned that for the entirety of Z! Sure, in the end it's sort of lame his final defeat comes via literal deus ex machina, but to the show's credit by that point he's compromised his own immortality, allowing the heroes to reduce him to that state.

And before you think I'm a Super Fanboy, I'd say Champa doesn't make the list :-P

edited 12th Dec '16 8:24:29 PM by Ghilz

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22198: Dec 12th 2016 at 8:35:14 PM

I don't have much of an opinion on Super either way.

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#22199: Dec 12th 2016 at 8:43:13 PM

Vegeta's first fight becomes a lot less impressive when you realize that it is, beat for beat, a copy-paste of Piccolo Jr's fight.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22200: Dec 12th 2016 at 9:09:33 PM

I wonder if Turles will make the list.


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