Hm? In her first appearance she demands that Goku marry her because he groped her out of ignorance and then vanished from the plot for years both in universe and out. Her second appearance she tried to beat him up because he (reasonably) didn't remember who she was nor that he agreed to marry her, a concept he didn't even understand at the time. Her next appearance I can think of where she actually says something of note was something so dickish that even Yajirobe? was like 'Um hey you do know your husband is currently being held together by post-it notes and bubblegum right? Your son isn't even hurt.' And then he went to spaaaaaaaaace.
I don't really care if you want to change her character or whatever but that's making her into something I don't think she ever was, not returning her to a more positive portrayal.
I mean, I like the idea of Chichi training with Kami and the others for a year and showing up at the battlefield yelling at Piccolo to give back her baby and not noticing that Vegeta and Nappa are there and not caring at first because she didn't even know the Saiyans were a thing.
My perception of Chichi is that she's very focused and single-minded. And driven.
She hears that Goku's dead and her baby has been kidnapped and all the others are going to train and so the best thing to do is clearly to go train herself to get her baby back. Everything about the Saiyans just goes in one ear and out the other.
Like. God I like the idea of her showing up to the fight and just not knowing or caring about the actual conflict of the arc.
It occurs to me that there is one thing Goku and Chichi have in common. When they have their minds on something it's impossible to change their minds. They focus on it to the exclusion of all else. Anything unrelated to their interest is just ignored.
edited 4th Dec '16 8:56:12 AM by unnoun
Chi Chi being one of the fighters killed by Nappa is just about the only version I've ever heard in which the monumentally bad parenting of allowing Gohan to go to Namek actually works. Instead of Chi Chi not being able to stop Gohan because she just can't control him - making Gohan a heroic version of that child who screams in the supermarket until his helpless mother caves in and buys him the thing - it works a lot better if she can't stop him because she's one of the people he wants to resurrect.
I mean, there's still Goku, but nobody ever accused Goku of being a responsible father.
Also, this:
is probably why Saiga and I disagree so much. I believe exactly the same thing, but reversed. Plot is just what happens when characters do stuff, and can only ever be as good as the characters who are doing those things. Without well-developed, interesting, engaging characters that the audience is emotionally invested in and wants to see succeed or fail, a story is just a bunch of stupid assholes doing a bunch of dumb shit that no one cares about.
And one of the ways characters build up that investment is through their history. A new character entering an established series always has a hurdle to overcome because, by nature, they do not have the same doting fanbase that the established characters do. They don't have a strong emotional investment as soon as they walk through those doors. They have to start over from scratch.
Saiga is correct that giving established characters more to do would conflict with part of the manga's focus, but the reason for that is that Toriyama uses characters as though they're all disposable. Introduce a character, have him do a couple things, then f*ck 'em, check out this NEW character I have.
There's nothing wrong with new characters, mind. But what's the point of getting invested in a character who's just going to be obsolete as soon as this fight is over?
Which, itself, wouldn't be as much of an issue if characters got a reasonable send-off. Future Trunks did Disposable Characters perfectly. He came in strong, found an appropriate place in the pecking order, told his story, and then went home and was never seen again. At least, not until Super.
But Dragon Ball, at its heart, is a clingy series. Characters overstay their welcome. They're still around long after they've run out of things to do, and that creates the illusion of being long-running established characters, which in turn creates the hostility of seeing them constantly disrespected for the sake of whoever the new asshole is.
Dragon Ball tries to have its cake and eat it too by having a long-running cast of protagonists, most of whom have long since fallen victim to Can't Catch Up and are just here to remind us they exist and maybe get brutally murdered every so often. It challenges its hero with a steady flow of new protagonists and antagonists who are effectively stepping stones for Goku to overcome. And that works for Goku's character, but at the expense of everyone else who gets introduced - especially when they aren't given an opportunity to bow out, and instead have to tag along with him, dragging the tattered shreds of the cool character they once were.
edited 4th Dec '16 10:05:30 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
x4 Broly is still probably on the list due to sheer impact and his concept (which, if I recall from the last list, was something they liked).
I feel like that's really the issue people have with the humans not being included; they're always sorta there, but never do anything at all. They don't even really serve as side help like Picollo does in the Buu arc, which means they just stand around and react, or die. Were they given a form of ending or at the very least shuffled off, people likely would be less irritated by it overall since at least the series is being direct about saying they're irrelevant, rather than demonstrating their irrelevance time and again and yet continuously bringing them back. Krillin at least felt like he was somewhat relevant to the Namek arc, and I haven't seen many complaints about human presence there because no other humans were there. Only people who were somewhat relevant showed up. I wouldn't have minded the humans being able to compete, but I also wouldn't have minded them just sorta going off and doing their own thing, but the sorta half-in-half-out thing they're doing kinda ends up feeling weird.
At least, that's how I've come to understand it.
EDIT: Welp, this thread suddenly moved a lot. Tobias
'd pretty much everything I was saying.
edited 4th Dec '16 12:49:21 PM by Alfric
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13239183440B34964700 Alfric's Fire Emblem Liveblog Encyclopedia!Broly has to be on the list. I'd assume fairly high, as well. I find the character thoroughly obnoxious but there is no denying the impact he's had on the fandom. He may be a garbage character, but he's easily one of the most well-known villains in Dragon Ball history and, for a movie-exclusive character, that's quite an achievement.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Of all the things I expected....
Actually, Broly probably could work with some more thought put into him.
Anyway, this conversation went quickly. I more or less agree with a lot of the thoughts on the matter. Especially Tobias' thoughts here:
I mean, everyone has their favourites, so it's rather frustrating that unless you like Goku and Vegeta, those favourites will be tossed under the bus that is Power Levels once their time is done. I've said before that how important you are is determined quite a bit by how much Toriyama cares about you (look at Mai and the Pilaf gang just suddenly showing up again after disappearing for the entirety of Z, and Mai being made Trunks' Girlfriend out of fucking nowhere). And you know what, that's ok.
I mean, the thing about 18 fighting in the Budokai while the others run off to save the day was good. This is the kind of shit I'm talking about. Like, while Goku and Vegeta go to roflstomp the big bad, someone else shows up and everyone else has to deal with that. In any other story, the other characters would step up and save the day. In Dragon Ball Z, Goku would still have to show up and save them after beating the other dude.
......shit. I feel like I'm just repeating myself again. You know what? I'm done with this. Even I'm sick of hearing myself say the same thing. If I ever talk about this again, I'm giving everyone permission to call me out. It's the only way.
As for the latest Dbcember, Shadow Dragons are a cool concept. But yeah, shit execution. Plus, as was pointed long ago (by Saiga I believe) if the Old Kai knew such a thing could happen, why did he never say anything?
One Strip! One Strip!This moment is so gory it makes me wince.
Thanks, Omega.
edited 4th Dec '16 4:00:56 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."And yet he didn't die...that guy has got extreme durability.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.The man can give an impassion soliloquy after being shot in the heart.
Not surprised random back spikes don't stop him.
One Strip! One Strip!

Putting more focus on them would just be pure fanservice, and while it's fine to want that, I think there are much better things the story can do with its time - fleshing out more important details, major events and primary characters. And changing stuff for the sake of fanservice means taking away something else to do so, which could potentially make the overall weaker for no reason other than to make fans of some secondary characters happy. The idea just isn't worth it to me.
I get that- and I wouldn't have a problem if the human characters were just phased out entirely. Characters like the Ox King, Yajirobe and Chiaotzu barely did anything at all beyond the Saiyan Saga, and I'm okay with that. If you try to give every single member of your 100 character ensemble an important role, the story will just feel overstuffed.
My problem is the way they handled characters like Tien and especially Yamcha. If they weren't going to have Yamcha contribute to the heroes' effort in any significant way, why even keep him around? What would have changed if Yamcha decided not to show up to the battle with the saiyans, or the battle with Android #19, or the Cell Games?
Sure, they threw Tien a bone every now and then (namely the Kikoho barrages against Cell and later Buu), but beyond that... it just seemed like they were trying to have their cake and eat it too. Either write the human characters out of the story or give them something meaningful to do with their screen time.
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