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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#21776: Dec 4th 2016 at 8:38:00 AM

As for it being unworkable, it's because I don't see it adding anything. I believe that characters should serve the story, not the other way around - especially for secondary characters. And it's fairly apparent that the story did not need more from those particular characters, as we've seen it was able to move forward without relying on them to do so.

Putting more focus on them would just be pure fanservice, and while it's fine to want that, I think there are much better things the story can do with its time - fleshing out more important details, major events and primary characters. And changing stuff for the sake of fanservice means taking away something else to do so, which could potentially make the overall weaker for no reason other than to make fans of some secondary characters happy. The idea just isn't worth it to me.

I get that- and I wouldn't have a problem if the human characters were just phased out entirely. Characters like the Ox King, Yajirobe and Chiaotzu barely did anything at all beyond the Saiyan Saga, and I'm okay with that. If you try to give every single member of your 100 character ensemble an important role, the story will just feel overstuffed.

My problem is the way they handled characters like Tien and especially Yamcha. If they weren't going to have Yamcha contribute to the heroes' effort in any significant way, why even keep him around? What would have changed if Yamcha decided not to show up to the battle with the saiyans, or the battle with Android #19, or the Cell Games?

Sure, they threw Tien a bone every now and then (namely the Kikoho barrages against Cell and later Buu), but beyond that... it just seemed like they were trying to have their cake and eat it too. Either write the human characters out of the story or give them something meaningful to do with their screen time.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#21777: Dec 4th 2016 at 8:40:58 AM

I would personally change Chi Chi to be less of a ball and chain hag to more of a partner kinda like her original appearance in the manga.

Hm? In her first appearance she demands that Goku marry her because he groped her out of ignorance and then vanished from the plot for years both in universe and out. Her second appearance she tried to beat him up because he (reasonably) didn't remember who she was nor that he agreed to marry her, a concept he didn't even understand at the time. Her next appearance I can think of where she actually says something of note was something so dickish that even Yajirobe? was like 'Um hey you do know your husband is currently being held together by post-it notes and bubblegum right? Your son isn't even hurt.' And then he went to spaaaaaaaaace.

I don't really care if you want to change her character or whatever but that's making her into something I don't think she ever was, not returning her to a more positive portrayal.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#21778: Dec 4th 2016 at 8:47:16 AM

I mean, I like the idea of Chichi training with Kami and the others for a year and showing up at the battlefield yelling at Piccolo to give back her baby and not noticing that Vegeta and Nappa are there and not caring at first because she didn't even know the Saiyans were a thing.

My perception of Chichi is that she's very focused and single-minded. And driven.

She hears that Goku's dead and her baby has been kidnapped and all the others are going to train and so the best thing to do is clearly to go train herself to get her baby back. Everything about the Saiyans just goes in one ear and out the other.

Like. God I like the idea of her showing up to the fight and just not knowing or caring about the actual conflict of the arc.

It occurs to me that there is one thing Goku and Chichi have in common. When they have their minds on something it's impossible to change their minds. They focus on it to the exclusion of all else. Anything unrelated to their interest is just ignored.

edited 4th Dec '16 8:56:12 AM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21779: Dec 4th 2016 at 10:01:54 AM

And, after that, it would make sense for her to go to Namek to ensure Gohan studies. Assuming she survived, that is. Which. I dunno. Whether that would work better narratively or not.

Chi Chi being one of the fighters killed by Nappa is just about the only version I've ever heard in which the monumentally bad parenting of allowing Gohan to go to Namek actually works. Instead of Chi Chi not being able to stop Gohan because she just can't control him - making Gohan a heroic version of that child who screams in the supermarket until his helpless mother caves in and buys him the thing - it works a lot better if she can't stop him because she's one of the people he wants to resurrect.

I mean, there's still Goku, but nobody ever accused Goku of being a responsible father.

Also, this:

I believe that characters should serve the story, not the other way around - especially for secondary characters.

is probably why Saiga and I disagree so much. I believe exactly the same thing, but reversed. Plot is just what happens when characters do stuff, and can only ever be as good as the characters who are doing those things. Without well-developed, interesting, engaging characters that the audience is emotionally invested in and wants to see succeed or fail, a story is just a bunch of stupid assholes doing a bunch of dumb shit that no one cares about.

And one of the ways characters build up that investment is through their history. A new character entering an established series always has a hurdle to overcome because, by nature, they do not have the same doting fanbase that the established characters do. They don't have a strong emotional investment as soon as they walk through those doors. They have to start over from scratch.

Saiga is correct that giving established characters more to do would conflict with part of the manga's focus, but the reason for that is that Toriyama uses characters as though they're all disposable. Introduce a character, have him do a couple things, then f*ck 'em, check out this NEW character I have.

There's nothing wrong with new characters, mind. But what's the point of getting invested in a character who's just going to be obsolete as soon as this fight is over?

Which, itself, wouldn't be as much of an issue if characters got a reasonable send-off. Future Trunks did Disposable Characters perfectly. He came in strong, found an appropriate place in the pecking order, told his story, and then went home and was never seen again. At least, not until Super.

But Dragon Ball, at its heart, is a clingy series. Characters overstay their welcome. They're still around long after they've run out of things to do, and that creates the illusion of being long-running established characters, which in turn creates the hostility of seeing them constantly disrespected for the sake of whoever the new asshole is.

Dragon Ball tries to have its cake and eat it too by having a long-running cast of protagonists, most of whom have long since fallen victim to Can't Catch Up and are just here to remind us they exist and maybe get brutally murdered every so often. It challenges its hero with a steady flow of new protagonists and antagonists who are effectively stepping stones for Goku to overcome. And that works for Goku's character, but at the expense of everyone else who gets introduced - especially when they aren't given an opportunity to bow out, and instead have to tag along with him, dragging the tattered shreds of the cool character they once were.

edited 4th Dec '16 10:05:30 AM by TobiasDrake

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OrionAurora Constellation from Andromeda Galaxy Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Constellation
#21780: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:00:26 AM

Number 21 gives us our first GT entry.

We are all made of star stuff. Very, very weird star stuff.
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#21781: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:05:39 AM

Makes sense to just group them together. The same will probably happen with the ginyu force. Also, guess it confirms no Super 17.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#21782: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:08:12 AM

I'll take that, I don't even mind that much.

The legend has returned.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#21783: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:17:37 AM

I was thinking that 17 and 18 are barely distinct as villains. So I guess if we get one it'll probably be both at the same time.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21784: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:19:51 AM

If I was gonna put someone on the list purely for design, it would be Super 17.

There definitely can't be more (pre-Battle of Gods) movie villains on the list with Omega Shenron at 21. He's better than all of them.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#21785: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:21:08 AM

I wonder where Dr. Gero is going to show up.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#21786: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:22:55 AM

I think he'd be near the middle, probably at the 15-10 range.

The legend has returned.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#21787: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:23:00 AM

Kaiser confirmed that Super Android 17 won't be on the list at the end. tongue

I forgot how...off-model the animation was to GT.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#21788: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:26:03 AM

[up]x4 Broly is still probably on the list due to sheer impact and his concept (which, if I recall from the last list, was something they liked).

This song needs more love.
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#21789: Dec 4th 2016 at 11:45:43 AM

Garlic Jr is also likely to show up as well.

Alfric Sailing the Skies! from Crescent Isle Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Sailing the Skies!
#21790: Dec 4th 2016 at 12:46:11 PM

I feel like that's really the issue people have with the humans not being included; they're always sorta there, but never do anything at all. They don't even really serve as side help like Picollo does in the Buu arc, which means they just stand around and react, or die. Were they given a form of ending or at the very least shuffled off, people likely would be less irritated by it overall since at least the series is being direct about saying they're irrelevant, rather than demonstrating their irrelevance time and again and yet continuously bringing them back. Krillin at least felt like he was somewhat relevant to the Namek arc, and I haven't seen many complaints about human presence there because no other humans were there. Only people who were somewhat relevant showed up. I wouldn't have minded the humans being able to compete, but I also wouldn't have minded them just sorta going off and doing their own thing, but the sorta half-in-half-out thing they're doing kinda ends up feeling weird.

At least, that's how I've come to understand it.

EDIT: Welp, this thread suddenly moved a lot. Tobias [nja]'d pretty much everything I was saying.

edited 4th Dec '16 12:49:21 PM by Alfric

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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21791: Dec 4th 2016 at 12:50:48 PM

[up][up]One definitely feels like those are the only two movie villains that still have a chance, though.

edited 4th Dec '16 12:51:12 PM by Gilphon

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21792: Dec 4th 2016 at 12:52:48 PM

Broly has to be on the list. I'd assume fairly high, as well. I find the character thoroughly obnoxious but there is no denying the impact he's had on the fandom. He may be a garbage character, but he's easily one of the most well-known villains in Dragon Ball history and, for a movie-exclusive character, that's quite an achievement.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#21793: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:33:59 PM

I forgot about Omega putting his chin on Goku's shoulder. That was weird.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21794: Dec 4th 2016 at 3:59:16 PM

, I'm sure a decent number of people here would find the idea of Broly totally unworkable, and can't see him being included in any way that won't detract from the work. I disagree, but I can understand where it's coming from.

Of all the things I expected....

Actually, Broly probably could work with some more thought put into him.

Anyway, this conversation went quickly. I more or less agree with a lot of the thoughts on the matter. Especially Tobias' thoughts here:

Saiga is correct that giving established characters more to do would conflict with part of the manga's focus, but the reason for that is that Toriyama uses characters as though they're all disposable. Introduce a character, have him do a couple things, then f*ck 'em, check out this NEW character I have. There's nothing wrong with new characters, mind. But what's the point of getting invested in a character who's just going to be obsolete as soon as this fight is over? Which, itself, wouldn't be as much of an issue if characters got a reasonable send-off. Future Trunks did Disposable Characters perfectly. He came in strong, found an appropriate place in the pecking order, told his story, and then went home and was never seen again. At least, not until Super. But Dragon Ball, at its heart, is a clingy series. Characters overstay their welcome. They're still around long after they've run out of things to do, and that creates the illusion of being long-running established characters, which in turn creates the hostility of seeing them constantly disrespected for the sake of whoever the new asshole is.

I mean, everyone has their favourites, so it's rather frustrating that unless you like Goku and Vegeta, those favourites will be tossed under the bus that is Power Levels once their time is done. I've said before that how important you are is determined quite a bit by how much Toriyama cares about you (look at Mai and the Pilaf gang just suddenly showing up again after disappearing for the entirety of Z, and Mai being made Trunks' Girlfriend out of fucking nowhere). And you know what, that's ok.

I mean, the thing about 18 fighting in the Budokai while the others run off to save the day was good. This is the kind of shit I'm talking about. Like, while Goku and Vegeta go to roflstomp the big bad, someone else shows up and everyone else has to deal with that. In any other story, the other characters would step up and save the day. In Dragon Ball Z, Goku would still have to show up and save them after beating the other dude.

......shit. I feel like I'm just repeating myself again. You know what? I'm done with this. Even I'm sick of hearing myself say the same thing. If I ever talk about this again, I'm giving everyone permission to call me out. It's the only way.

As for the latest Dbcember, Shadow Dragons are a cool concept. But yeah, shit execution. Plus, as was pointed long ago (by Saiga I believe) if the Old Kai knew such a thing could happen, why did he never say anything?

One Strip! One Strip!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21795: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:00:24 PM

This moment is so gory it makes me wince. Thanks, Omega.

edited 4th Dec '16 4:00:56 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#21796: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:04:20 PM

I love that moment.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21797: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:05:15 PM

Why? It looks disgusting. Those spikes are huge.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#21798: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:07:43 PM

'Cause Veggie got speared on them.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#21799: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:20:29 PM

And yet he didn't die...that guy has got extreme durability.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21800: Dec 4th 2016 at 4:24:46 PM

The man can give an impassion soliloquy after being shot in the heart.

Not surprised random back spikes don't stop him.

One Strip! One Strip!

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