Gero's connection to the RRA comes right out of nowhere in the canon, as do his motivations. In fact, beyond "Kill Son Goku", he doesn't really seem to have a motivation. Or a character. We did our best to flesh him out a little more.
My various fanfics.That sounds like you're starting from the beginning.
The very beginning?
edited 4th Dec '16 12:02:19 AM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Again, not an example of what you were talking about. Gero was a nobody until he completed his Androids. Foreshadowing him would be nice if Toriyama had planned it that far, but is wholly unnecessary. You're also wrong about him having nothing beyond "kill Goku" as Android 20 he makes it clear what his intentions were both before and after Goku got involved in his life: he wanted to achieve world domination as part of the RRA, and his dreams were crushed by the RRA being taken down. Killing Goku is a step he needs to take both for personal satisfaction and in order to carry out his dream of world domination.
This is all made very clear in a few lines of dialogue that don't waste page time. Since he's only the impetus for the arc, and not the main villain of either timeline, devoting more time to him would wasted.
edit: Anyway, this clearly must have changed a lot from what Zel originally told me, which involved pretty massive changes some the Saiyan arc hit.
edited 4th Dec '16 12:05:54 AM by Saiga
Art is never necessary. It isn't necessary for Gero to be introduced earlier, but it also isn't necessary for him to exist at all. It's not even necessary for the Androids to have ever happened. Or the Red Ribbon Army. Push comes to shove, it's not necessary for Dragon Ball to even exist at all.
It's ideal for characters to not come straight out of nowhere claiming connections where there was none. It's preferred that important plot points are foreshadowed and developed ahead of time so they don't feel like they're being ripped straight out of someone's ass. It's desirable for beloved characters not to get dumped on the curb because the plot abruptly stopped caring about them. Etc. etc.
But it's not necessary. You can tell your story without any of those things. But if you do, you might just find that it's not necessary for the story to be good, either.
Improvement isn't about what's necessary. It's about what will make the narrative flow more organically - which, I should note, is quite a subjective thing.
Dragon Ball's narrative doesn't. It was written mostly on-the-spot with very little planning, and it shows. It's a great work that many of us enjoyed, but it unapologetically reads like a rough draft. Consequentially, a lot of people have ideas for ways it could be improved. Those ideas aren't necessary; they are the product of the passion and imagination those people have for the work that's inspired them so.
edited 4th Dec '16 12:23:21 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.You are being way too literal there.
Yes, I understand nothing is one-hundred percent literally necessary. What I meant, and what should have been painfully obvious, is that those elements weren't necessary for the narrative to flow organically. Not necessary for the story to be good.
Your entire post is nothing but semantics on that point.
edit: As for those specific examples...
1) Gero isn't Remember the New Guy?. He's not even close to being that trope because the main character didn't know him or his connection to the RRA. Trunks explained that he was there, as one of the scientists. That's not the trope unless you object to the idea of the RRA having members beyond the ones we saw on-screen.
2) As for foreshadowing, well, this isn't really a specific example so I can't comment. But if this also relates to Gero, all of Dragon Ball's villains are arc based, and the set up is for villains to be introduced in the arc that deals with them or at the very most, at the tail end of the preceding arc. Nothing about Gero's connection is so personal that it requires most foreshadowing than the other villains we see. If anything, the presence of RRA having Androids is more foreshadowing than we have ever received.
3) This is now a separate issue entirely, and also a completely inaccurate way of describing the humans. They didn't get dumped abruptly, they were never as big a deal as people like to claim and were phased out over time. There's a very logical progression to the way they fell behind, and the actual acknowledgement of such gives insight into their characters. Furthermore, both claiming it is desirable and that they are beloved entirely ignores that they were not beloved to all. Sure, if it cost absolutely nothing to make them look good, then that would certainly be nice for those particular fans. But nothing is free, not even in fiction. Every choice in a story has an opportunity cost, meaning it not objectively better for the humans to be treated better.
And my main issue with a lot of these Fix Fic or re-write ideas is that often it veers dangerously close to the territory where "rewarding" characters is assumed to be inherently good.
edited 4th Dec '16 12:40:02 AM by Saiga
Those things don't keep the story from being simple...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I have to admit, Saiga, it often seems like your against the very idea that Dragon Ball can be improved as a narrative.
Oh God! Natural light!You haven't seen me in the actual Dragon Ball thread. I have many criticisms of this series and have proposed my own preferred takes on certain things, but I have seen hundreds of variations of the same basic premise for "fixing" the series.
Many of which show a lack of understanding of the themes, tone or intent of the series and are incredibly ill-thought out or entirely self serving. Sturgeon's Law in full effect.
It won't be improved, just spicing up an old story with extra details.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice."Intent", as far as I'm concerned, matters little. I believe that these suggestions are being made with the belief that some of Toriyama's ideas were bad ones, yes?
Is "the same story, just with stuff added" really how all of these suggestions go?
edited 4th Dec '16 1:02:32 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!Speaking of which, Karket, how're you liking the fic so far? You can just PM me if you want, we're probably gonna get yelled at for going way off-topic and shilling.
My various fanfics.![]()
That's an entirely different style, though, and while preferences are fine, I think it would go too far to act like all stories would be better told in one style.
Some stories follow a single arc, or a main narrative point throughout their arcs. The opposite style is to be based around arc villains and separated story arcs (or, extremely, episodic stories without arcs).
Dragon Ball, I feel works better as an arc based, because otherwise that would mean welding together ~10 different story arcs with very loose connections. Furthemore, Dragon Ball's most prevalent theme is self-improvement and getting stronger, which is why villains rarely recur as reaching a new height means moving on from the past. The fact that each arc is either completely new or a deliberate upgrade from the previous ties in nicely with the feeling that the characters are constantly moving up.
Arc based does not mean that it can't feel connected or that it does not get hinted at from a previous arc. Plenty of shows have done that. Nothing is wrong with wanting the story to not feel like a mess when looked back on years later.
"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy@Saiga: I suppose I understand your stance. But the whole thing, to me, just seems to rely on Toriyama's vision being unimpeachable. Surely we could make our own ideas work if we put some thought and elbow grease into them. You don't seem to even want to allow for the possibility.
Hell, I'd be interested in seeing you come up with ideas.
Oh God! Natural light!![]()
I have to heavily disagree that the story feels like a mess due to the arcs not being connected.
And the more you stress the connections, the more you move closer to a single narrative running through. Which again, is not the only way to do things.
As it is, there ARE connections and foreshadowing present in the arcs. The Android arc builds off the one outlier we see from the RRA: their Androids. Namek follows the Saiyan arc quite logically, Junior follows Daimao, the 21st Budokai follows from Goku wanting to train with Roshi which was established during the first arc. The first arc also establishes the RRA arc by imposing a time limit before Goku starts searching for his four star ball.
Literally what I do in the other thread. Well, at least when I was more active and the phrase "work life balance" didn't make me laugh so hard.
I don't think Toriyama's vision was impeachable, but at the same time, I have no obligation to entertain certain ideas. Some ideas at their core just seem unfavorable to me. Everyone is going to have that with certain things. As an example, I'm sure a decent number of people here would find the idea of Broly totally unworkable, and can't see him being included in any way that won't detract from the work. I disagree, but I can understand where it's coming from.
More specifically, what ideas do you want to see? I like giving my ideas for how I'd like seeing things done when it's topical and I have something I'd like to add. But, like, if you're asking me to share ideas on how to improve the discussed ideas (Gero foreshadowing, humans being important), then I won't. Because those are not things I wanted in the series, those are not things I foresee as being beneficial to the series.
...although I guess I did just that for Resurrection F, but my ideal version of that movie is still for it to never exist.
The only idea I really came up for for the humans was a spin-off on how the series would work if Porunga was unable to grant two wishes. Kuririn's death would need to be swapped out with Gohan's (and the Boo arc later massively reworked) and without a second resurrection Chaozu would stay dead. Now, since the manga has Tenshinhan say he'd rather stay with Chaozu than it'd be logical for him to stay dead with Chaozu despite the possibility for him to be resurrected. I think that would be a nice way to retire them from the manga, the two of them training together in the afterlife, not needing to measure themselves against aliens and just having their own limits to best.
Aw, but if they stayed dead then he wouldn't be able to conveniently save Kakarrot and get knocked by some disembodied legs.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Well, I suppose I would want to know how you would improve female representation in Dragon Ball.
Curious as to why you see more human focus as unworkable, though.
I like that, that's nice. I think that if you're not planning on really doing anything with a character anymore, then it'd probably be best to give them a definite ending once you're finished with them, so I think that's a really good idea.
edited 4th Dec '16 2:00:52 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!Thanks.
As for it being unworkable, it's because I don't see it adding anything. I believe that characters should serve the story, not the other way around - especially for secondary characters. And it's fairly apparent that the story did not need more from those particular characters, as we've seen it was able to move forward without relying on them to do so.
Putting more focus on them would just be pure fanservice, and while it's fine to want that, I think there are much better things the story can do with its time - fleshing out more important details, major events and primary characters. And changing stuff for the sake of fanservice means taking away something else to do so, which could potentially make the overall weaker for no reason other than to make fans of some secondary characters happy. The idea just isn't worth it to me.
This applies less to the EU where the stories are more varied and many of which don't have much to lose anyway.
Which is also why, in terms of female representation, I don't think I'd change a whole lot when talking about the manga. I'd like to see the characterizations handled less stereotypically, particularly Chichi's - even though I understand she represents the opposite extreme to Goku, his views are portrayed so much more positively and level-headed than hers which makes the contrast incredibly unfair. I don't like just talking about genderswapping existing characters, because if nothing else changes it feels incredibly shallow
18 I'd like to be written less as a reward for Kuririn (even though I know that's how Toriyama admitted to using her) but that would probably lead to more time with 17 if they are to be treated equally. 18 I could see as a serious fighter but the very next arc puts her in a better role than that, by giving her a subplot away from the main plot that gives her quality focus and fits her character a lot better. Aside from the way her romance with Kuririn was set up, I'm pretty happy with her manga run. She just came so late.
The EU, again, is where I think this needs work. Super in particular gives us bland housewife Videl, obnoxiously exaggerated and regressed character Chichi (remember how she loosened up after the Cell arc and taught Goten fighting instead of studying? Super sure as fuck doesn't), Waifu Maifu, and "stay in the kitchen" Kuririn. Well, the last was introduced in Resurrection F and upgraded to "and get dinner ready while you're at it" in Super.
Unfortunately, the fact that Kuririn is married to someone stronger than him means one extremely prevalent fan wish is to see him outdo her somehow to prove his own merit, despite already having had plenty of chances to do so long before he met her. Which is why she gets left out so that he can look good, or he's saving her in video game plots and fanworks, etc.
So what I would focus on is removing or replacing the negative portrayals that have arisen in the franchise.
I would personally change Chi Chi to be less of a ball and chain hag to more of a partner kinda like her original appearance in the manga. When it came to at least Saiyan saga Z she would be right there on the front lines, maybe Krillan tier. When it came to Gohan she would be a balancer and be 'study and train'. Improve the family as a whole instead of being a block.
With 18 I would put her on the front lines of the Buu saga, she is still really freaken strong.
Basically make it so the Cast Herd at least had a competent Token Female member at the very least.
edited 4th Dec '16 6:18:15 AM by Memers
I mean, the thing with Chichi is she went to that world tournament after training for it because she had a goal, and that goal was Goku. Goku made her a promise and then didn't follow through, so she decided to take what was rightfully hers.
After Raditz, Piccolo stole her baby.
Like. There is at least an argument to be made that Chichi being involved in the Saiyan Saga would be more in-character.
And, after that, it would make sense for her to go to Namek to ensure Gohan studies. Assuming she survived, that is. Which. I dunno. Whether that would work better narratively or not.
So here's a simple idea: have her train with Kami for a year, not because she knows or cares about the Saiyans, but so she can rescue her baby and then when she goes to get Gohan back it's on the day Vegeta and Nappa arrive.
edited 4th Dec '16 6:41:57 AM by unnoun

that is not an example of either of those things