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OrionAurora Constellation from Andromeda Galaxy Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Constellation
#21676: Dec 2nd 2016 at 11:23:00 AM

@Enlong: I imagine Beerus and Broly being fairly high up the list.

edited 2nd Dec '16 11:23:36 AM by OrionAurora

We are all made of star stuff. Very, very weird star stuff.
optimusjamie Since: Jun, 2010
#21678: Dec 2nd 2016 at 11:26:01 AM

Broly was an interesting concept and did get three whole movies, but there's nothing else really there. Personally I'm expecting him to be showing up fairly soon.

Direct all enquiries to Jamie B Good
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#21679: Dec 2nd 2016 at 11:33:29 AM

I like Cooler a lot for his voice, admittedly due to a lot of his lines being used for Mecha Sonic in Super Mario Bros Z, but his fighting style was also just a lot more BRUTAL than Frieza's was. Plus, Supernova is just an awesome move in general.

OrionAurora Constellation from Andromeda Galaxy Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
Constellation
#21680: Dec 2nd 2016 at 11:34:05 AM

Maybe I was being ambitious when saying Broly would be "fairly high" on the list. I expect him to be placed past #20... but not past #20 himself.tongue

We are all made of star stuff. Very, very weird star stuff.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#21682: Dec 2nd 2016 at 11:42:15 AM

Honestly if Cooler is 23, I expect Broly soon.

I'm more curious on the GT villains. They mentioned that there's going to be some, and not in the bottom slot. Who from GT would you see in the top 15?

Baby? Maybe?

edited 2nd Dec '16 12:00:10 PM by Ghilz

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#21684: Dec 2nd 2016 at 12:33:52 PM

I think Baby is a pretty good villain. A few of the evil dragons had their own appeal (I liked the seven-star dragon fight, even if his shtick was taken straight from Buu). Rilldo's pretty cool for an elite mook, too. I wouldn't be surprised to see those guys show up.

And who knows, maybe the Para Para brothers will make a surprise appearance tongue

EDIT: Oh, you said the Top 15. Yeah, just Baby and maybe one of the dragons (probably someone other than Syn).

edited 2nd Dec '16 12:35:36 PM by JonnasN

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21685: Dec 2nd 2016 at 12:50:04 PM

Fun fact, Cooler is the only member of his race, including Frost, who doesnt bother speaking politely in Japanese. He's very blunt and direct to help sell him being the family black sheep more.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#21686: Dec 2nd 2016 at 12:51:20 PM

Oooh, excellent. Thank you for telling me.

My various fanfics.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#21687: Dec 2nd 2016 at 1:32:10 PM

Super 17 could show up.Probably not. tongue

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21688: Dec 2nd 2016 at 1:39:06 PM

[up]I'll give Super 17 at least some credit for being beaten in a way that isn't "power up and beat them down" (or spirit bomb). As a villain, though, yeah, not a chance. His entire existence was nonsensical.

Baby was pretty cool, though. At least, from what I had seen in those few episodes of GT I caught.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#21689: Dec 2nd 2016 at 2:01:29 PM

Baby was somewhat decent, Super 17 was inconsequential and nonsensical, and the Shadow Dragons... 4 were villians of the week, and then we had 3 competent fighters, one of which turned into an ally.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#21690: Dec 2nd 2016 at 3:12:49 PM

I'd say that Omega Shenron gets at least a little credit for functionally being the final boss to the entire universe for 17 years.

This song needs more love.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21692: Dec 2nd 2016 at 4:06:49 PM

Regarding Staff Officer Black I can appreciate that reasoning for him. I've always felt that the Red Ribbon Army in general has been generally underrated. Yes, Goku plows through them like a steamroller in an orphanage but that, in and of itself, is what makes it great. What Toriyama created with this arc was one of the best pieces of foreshadowing he's ever accidentally done. Because when Raditz lands and says that Goku is an alien planet-killer from a species where even their children can butcher entire armies and slaughter legions of soldiers, it rings true. Before Saiyans were even a concept in Toriyama's mind, we got to see Goku demonstrate exactly what a Saiyan is capable of and why they are such a great and terrible threat to the universe.

Y'all here that! My man Tobias is betting on Black!tongue

Regarding best villain For me, as should be no surprised to anyone, I'm rooting for Frieza. After spending an entire arc being built up as completely impossible to match, beyond the limits of anyone's imagination, you will die if you fight him no matter what...Frieza delivered. A lot of times, this kind of shilling is just setting up for the hero to overcome the impossible because he's awesome, but Frieza f*cking delivered. Frieza faced everything the franchise had to throw at him. The protagonists pulled out every gun in Chekhov's Armory. Every cool technique and strategy that had ever worked for them before, they threw it all at Frieza and he waded through it with no f*cks given. He proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that every other character was right when they said that fighting him was a mistake because he cannot be beaten - not even by the almighty Goku.

This is very true. No one can say Frieza wasn't exactly what he was advertised to be.

The one misstep I feel that was taken with Frieza was having Goku pull Super Saiyan out of his ass right there on the spot for no other reason than because he couldn't win without it. It's another consequence of Toriyama not planning ahead. He saw the insanely ridiculous power gap between Ginyu and Frieza as necessitating a Deus ex Machina, whereas I see it as meaning Goku isn't supposed to be fighting this opponent at this stage. Fighting Frieza on Namek is like fighting Vegeta immediately after the Red Ribbon Army. A power gap of that magnitude typically means you've jumped off the rails on the Sorting Algorithm of Evil and are about to get Beef Gated back into your proper position. Rather than ass pulling a new power-up on the spot to win, the victory condition of this fight should simply have been to escape. Frieza clearly establishes himself as an enemy for a later date.

I also agree with this. In addition to having the so called ultimate attack (Spirit Bomb) fail for a second time, it also meant denied us an opportunity for a potential re-occuring villain. Toriyama had a chance to keep Frieza in the background as a ever looming threat. What if he finds his way to Earth? How will they fight him? Is he going to rebuild the forces he lost? What will happen and how do you prepare for something like that? This could have been the impetus for Goku to start trying to reach for Super Saiyan and become powerful enough to face him.

Toriyama doesn't think that far ahead though, so Goku just powered up and became more powerful.

Oooh. He could have had the Spirit Bomb injure Frieza; not enough to kill him, but enough to create a similar effect to how things were in Resurrection F: a massive power vacuum that sees those under Frieza's heel stepping up, including those guys just as bad, but keep in place by him, leading to a Galactic power struggle. Maybe forces like the Galactic Patrol finally getting the balls to try and take him on and take him out (since in canon, they're so weak that even with Frieza dead, they apparently still couldn't do shit against him, which really irks me). You could have gotten some good stuff out of that.

Anyway, in regards to Coola, I have to agree, though he still holds a special place in my heart, as the sixth movie was my first ever exposure to DBZ, so it'll always be my favourite movie.

And even though it goes against Toriyama's style, I love Coola's extra form in the fifth movie. It's so the opposite of his brother's, and considering the mention of his more brutal fighting style, and how he apparently doesn't bother with Keigo, it fits him. He's not the asshole pretending to be a nice dude. He's upfront about what a dick he is.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21693: Dec 2nd 2016 at 6:49:15 PM

I don't get why so many people want Dragon Ball to be something it never was and never will be. If you want stuff like that, you're following the wrong franchise.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21694: Dec 2nd 2016 at 6:56:27 PM

I can't help it man.

I love the series, but I feel like there were so many things it could have done better.

I feel like there were a lot of missed opportunities.

I feel like it's not fair that Launch just disappears because she's an unimportant gag character when Oolong and Puar still get to show up regularly despite serving no real purpose.....

Right. That last one can be ignored

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#21695: Dec 2nd 2016 at 10:10:35 PM

I think Naturon Shenron needs a little more credit than being just lumped in "monster of the week" with Haze, Rage, and Oceanus. He started out as just another goofy elemental dragon with a silly personality, but then he pulled that death fakeout, absorbed Pan, and ditched the dopey act in favor of showing his true colors as a cruel, pragmatic asshole who knows fully well how valuable a hostage he's got.

Even though it's a moment of hubris that leads to his downfall, I'm fond of his chillingly ironic "Your wish has been granted" when showing Goku Pan one last time before he dies. Does he say that (or its Japanese equivalent) in the original Japanese, or was that just a neat touch the dub added?

edited 2nd Dec '16 10:11:58 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#21696: Dec 2nd 2016 at 10:15:26 PM

[up][up][up] I've always felt that to truly love and be a fan of something, you need to be aware of its flaws.

To read or watch something and wish it could've been done better is completely natural, because everything has flaws, and no writer is ever going to avoid missteps. Sometimes, those writers will read what their fans think should've been done better, and improve their future work because of it. And on the off chance that fan doing so ends up creating something of their own someday, it further helps the thing they were a fan of be an inspiration.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#21697: Dec 2nd 2016 at 10:33:09 PM

[up] I also find blindly accepting flaws of a series leads to stuff like Super where literally every criticism gets handwaved away with "C'mon, it's Dragonball." tongue

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#21698: Dec 3rd 2016 at 12:25:35 AM

@Handsome Rob: It's fair to criticise Dragon Ball on developments we dislike about it, I just think making a storyline about the power vacuum in Freeza's empire goes against the show's genre (it's a kung-fu/superhero action show, not a political/crime drama). Dragon Ball can do good world-building, but not good drama. I would imagine such a thing could be the background for the emergence of a new villain, but that's about it.

I'm also unsure how "The spirit bomb puts Freeza down, but doesn't quite kill him" is supposed to be different from what happened in canon. Goku went Super Saiyan, and "almost killed him, but not quite" is exactly what happened.

And since we're on the subject (and this is also a response to Tobias' previous comment), I highly disagree on the idea that Super Saiyan was a Deus Ex Machina to deal with Freeza's invincibility. The notion of a Super Saiyan had been mentioned and foreshadowed, and it's pretty clear that the Namek arc was building towards that. Super Saiyan wasn't a plot device made up to deal with Freeza, it's the other way around: Freeza was made as invincible as possible to convince the audience that the legendary Super Saiyan needed to exist. The iconic moment is "Goku goes Super Saiyan", not "Freeza tears through everything". The latter is build-up, the former is climax.

Even though it's a moment of hubris that leads to his downfall, I'm fond of his chillingly ironic "Your wish has been granted" when showing Goku Pan one last time before he dies. Does he say that (or its Japanese equivalent) in the original Japanese, or was that just a neat touch the dub added?

That's the first time I'm hearing it, so that might be a thing the US version did.

edited 3rd Dec '16 12:30:25 AM by JonnasN

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21699: Dec 3rd 2016 at 4:48:29 AM

@KnownUnknown: Yes but it's one thing to criticize the original's flaws and it's another thing entire entire to wish it was a completely different work. As Jonnas pointed out, what you guys are suggesting does not fit the narrative and themes of Dragon Ball in the slightest. If it did what you suggested, Dragon Ball would be more like every other shounen out there and one of the things I love most about Dragon Ball is that, even to this day, it's not like every other shounen out there.

What you guys are wishing for- and often wish for- is like wishing for a story arc of One-Punch Man where Saitama gets the shit beaten out of him. It just doesn't work.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#21700: Dec 3rd 2016 at 6:42:01 AM

[up]That. It just plain isn't what the series is about, or even all that interesting to me.


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