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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#21376: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:15:59 AM

So...I had an idea about how to improve female representation in Dragon Ball (keep in mind that the most I've actually seen of it is from TFS - I haven't seen the original or Z)...

I personally think that the first thing that could be done would be to make Chi Chi equal to Krillin in strength. Mind you, this would probably require a few changes to at least the Saiyan Saga...

Thoughts?

Oh God! Natural light!
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#21377: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:16:27 AM

Well she was a good fighter in the original Dragon Ball series. I bet it'd be easy for her to learn to use Ki and fly and whatnot.

edited 28th Nov '16 7:16:41 AM by theLibrarian

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21378: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:19:42 AM

Evolution basically did that; replace Krillin with Chi-Chi. It sucked, but I can understand the motivation. Honestly, you could just gender-swap some random, slightly important characters and change nothing about the series. Tenshinhan, Nappa, Jeice, and Goten are all possibilities.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21379: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:22:16 AM

[up][up][up] By itself that idea adds nothing, creates several problems in the story, and completely ignores that Kuririn's power level and especially relative power level change quite significantly over the course of the series due to the direction of the plot.

Chichi's also not a very good character for that sort of thing, even if she had the power she wouldn't want to be involved except to be more direct in trying to keep Gohan out which would be very cumbersome for the plot.

Also, Kuririn kind of got a bone thrown to him to become the strongest human, and even before then was the Earthling with the most focus and stand out moments. It wouldn't be right to just give the same amount of power or focus to Chichi when she doesn't have that role.

Her being directly comparable to Yamcha or Tenshinhan would be a better idea, but her character still means it would add nothing.

[up] I don't think the series would want to get into a male/female hybrid Gotenks. The others I agree with, Tenshinhan is probably the best replacement for a main cast member.

edited 28th Nov '16 7:23:13 AM by Saiga

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#21380: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:22:19 AM

I wonder, Xenoverse nonwithstanding, how powerful can a human actually be through sheer training alone? Even with months of training, the human Z-fighters would still stand no chance against Vegeta and Nappa, two fairly run-of-the-mill Saiyans. They do manage to fight Frieza's run-of-the-mill soldiers, but what about against other alien fighters and whatnot?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21381: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:26:36 AM

Depends what you mean by "sheer training alone". Just training in normal conditions on Earth (memetically, MOUNTAIN TRAINING) is absolutely crap for long term development and the humans went to more fantastical methods of training like training under God, then on Kaio's planet. Those let them go far beyond what regular Earth training would allow, but God's training left them in the range of stronger than Saibaiman but weaker than Nappa (Kuririn and Tenshinhan surpassed Raditz at least), and Kaio's training left Yamcha and Tenshinhan weaker than Kuririn but vague beyond that.

Tenshinhan then never surpassed Kuririn's one-time potential unlock, so that gives you an idea of their limits even with superior, non-Earthly forms of training.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#21382: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:28:04 AM

Tien is how powerful humans can get with JUST training. Krillin's stringer, but only because of Guru.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#21383: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:29:09 AM

Well considering the "gravity increase" training helped Goku get stronger, would that also help with humans?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21384: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:30:01 AM

Hell, if you want to get crazy, you could gender-swap Gohan <-ignore this, this is a terrible idea, it would have all the Unfortunate Implications regarding Videl's current characterization times 1,000.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21385: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:30:04 AM

In other news, Cell recounting Goku's entire history and explaining the very personal revenge releationship he has with him on national tv is going to make it very hard for Satan to claim later that those blonde guys that Cell keeps paying attention to are nobody important.

It would be very easy for him to do that because the people of Earth are morons who will believe anything.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21386: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:30:05 AM

If living human bodies can withstand 100x gravity, it would.

Kaio's planet is already 10x gravity.

[up][up] I was also going to bring up the Gohan genderswap but it would be really uncomfortable with the current ideal of the series being "Gohan just can't be Goku and only Goku can do it" if Gohan is a girl on top of that.

"Gohan, your lack of penis means you can never be as good as your father" etc

edited 28th Nov '16 7:31:23 AM by Saiga

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#21387: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:40:42 AM

@Saiga: Well, difference in strength would be part one - we'd need some character rewrites as well. I'd personally consider the whole "training Gohan" part of the Saiyan Saga as a good opportunity for Chi Chi to work through that - basically, her constantly arguing with Piccolo about it, and both of them learning to accept that the other's perspective has value? I don't know, maybe there's a better way to work around that.

Oh God! Natural light!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21388: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:42:50 AM

That is just introducing an unnecessary element to the Piccolo/Gohan subplot that was developing there.

And Chichi's personality would have to change so drastically to accommodate that, Goku may as well have married an OC.

Dragon Ball's plot is already fairly tight as it is and would need some pruning even without a desire to put more characters into it.

edited 28th Nov '16 7:43:30 AM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21389: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:46:38 AM

The only way a female character in Dragonball will be combat relevant is if Toriyama ever cares enough to make Pan a Super Saiyan, and that will never happen.

The most important woman in The series will always be the non combat oriented Bulma.

As for how much gravity training would benefit the human characters, I'm pretty sure the answer is not enough.

One Strip! One Strip!
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#21390: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:47:38 AM

[up][up] ...Okay, look, I'll freely admit to being unfamiliar with the intricacies of Dragon Ball's plot.

But watching TFS has gotten me interested in it, so I'm rather annoyed by the obvious sexism inherent in the series, and I wanted to start a discussion on ways to improve that.

Now, this is hardly giving the series a facelift, I'll admit that - this is deep surgery. I'm essentially looking at ways to rewrite the series. But I'd like to think that it could be done, or at least would make for an interesting topic of discussion.

So if you could at least try to work with me a bit here instead of trying to shut me down (and while this may not have been your intention, that is kind of what it feels like), I would very much appreciate it.

edited 28th Nov '16 7:48:27 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21391: Nov 28th 2016 at 7:54:00 AM

I'm not trying to shut you down, I am merely pointed out how certain ideas would not fit and why. If no consideration is given to how an idea would actually play out and if it would hold up, then I don't see how anyone could say if it would be better.

I also disagree that the lack of female presence is sexism, and that increased presence is an inherent improvement. I would still like to see the representation improvement, but I think it's better to start with characters who fit that need better but are underutilized, like 18 and Pan.

On a franchise level, the EU is also one area where a lot of female fighters could have been added without upsetting anything at all.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#21392: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:13:59 AM

Well does a quarter-Saiyan even have the ability to be a Super Saiyan?

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#21393: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:18:33 AM

well Goku Jr had even less Saiyan blood and transformed, and yes I know that is GT, canon or uncanon it would follow established rules to a degree I would assume.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21394: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:21:38 AM

I don't think Gravity Training would work too well with humans. Goku got those results by nearly killing himself severeal times doing it, and then Zenkai'd up by abusing senzu Beans.

Saiyans just be hax, yo, what with their Zenkai and endless transformations. I blame Frieza for forcing such power creep.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#21395: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:44:26 AM

Saiga I really do think you are super overstating how much certain changes would cause problems. And that does feel like shutting people down instead of working to see how a concept could have been hypothetically done. It's not just for this idea either, you've done this for others too.

I also disagree that the lack of female presence is sexism, and that increased presence is an inherent improvement.

Nah.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#21396: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:50:49 AM

I guess the question would be which is preferable: A few really well written female characters or a ton of poorly written ones?

Disclaimer: I feel that Dragon Ball has neither and obviously a ton of well written female characters is the best solution. This question is purely hypothetical.

This song needs more love.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#21397: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:51:25 AM

I also disagree that the lack of female presence is sexism, and that increased presence is an inherent improvement.

I disagree with the former but agree with the latter.

[up]I mean.

...Geez, it depends. I dunno.

edited 28th Nov '16 8:52:34 AM by unnoun

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#21398: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:56:41 AM

I would say a few well-written female characters.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21399: Nov 28th 2016 at 8:56:47 AM

I think Bulma's pretty great. She's been consistently one of the most important characters in Super, especially the most recent arc.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#21400: Nov 28th 2016 at 9:05:07 AM

I mean, going by this entry from the Values Dissonance page:

The final saga of the original Dragon Ball series focuses on Goku and Chichi learning to be a respectable married couple, but specifically on teaching Chichi subservience to her new husband, a trait rather out-of-fashion in Western society these days. And that's not even getting into the mountain that actively repels any female that attempts to climb it, a fact which only "bad girl" Mai seems to have a problem with.

So even if the heavily slanted gender ratio isn't an example of sexism itself (and I disagree that it isn't), I think it's at the very least a symptom.

As for whether a few well-written female characters is better than a ton of poorly-written ones...I'd say yeah, quality over quantity, unless we're going to claim that something like, I don't know, Keijo is better than Fullmetal Alchemist in this department.

(Disclaimer: I have not actually seen Keijo. Though I'm not gonna lie, a part of me does kind of want to. Which part of me, I'm not sure, but it's a part I'm deeply ashamed of.)

edited 28th Nov '16 9:12:21 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

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