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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20776: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:54:20 AM

Credit where it's due. The Genki-Dama has only ever been successful once and it took a lot of thinking around the foe in order to make it work.

My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours has been an element of the series forever. It carried Goku through many of his early fights. It's how he beat the Red Ribbon Army. Even his fight with Piccolo Daimao came down to Goku hitting him really hard. Very rarely has he actually had to think his way around a foe - and most of that thought was figuring out ways to hit them really hard, like using his Kamehameha to propel him into Piccolo or spontaneously mastering bukujutsu to propel him into Piccolo the second time.

That said, there is a tactical element to the series and one that's present through most of it. That doesn't end at Z. Raditz is beaten by tactics. Vegeta is beaten by dogpiling Chekhov's Armory on his face. Captain Ginyu is a threat through a unique power and outmatched by cleverness.

Frieza is the point where cleverness, tactics, and My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours all failed. That's kind of his shtick. Every gun in Chekhov's Armory is fired, every skill or strategy the characters have is used, and it all shatters on the impenetrable hide of his absolutely ridiculous battle power. It took the miraculous fulfillment of an ancient legend to outmatch him.

And then the Cell Saga happened and that...yeah, that was 100% about raising battle power and mastering new transformations. It's the weakest arc of the series, but it's also the most popular arc, so people tend to take its focus on unlocking a new Super Saiyan form or trying to raise battle powers faster than Cell can raise his battle power and apply that brush to the series as a whole.

But then Majin Buu comes around and is a return to form, with creative new abilities and an inventive villain who eats My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours for breakfast.

People always hold up DB like it's some bastion of the series where characters were all reasonably powered and every fight was decided by quick wits and clever techniques. Seriously, pick any moment of the RRA Saga and you'll see Goku slaughtering RRA soldiers by the dozen because he's so powerful they can't hold a candle to him. Until Taopaipai comes along and bests Goku by being totes stronger.

Z didn't invent that. It's been part of the series from day one.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:00:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20777: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:25:21 AM

Seriously, pick any moment of the RRA Saga and you'll see Goku slaughtering RRA soldiers by the dozen because he's so powerful they can't hold a candle to him.

What about the Muscle Tower arc? Goku's battles against Ninja Murasaki and Buyon definitely didn't just come down to just a difference in power. Murasaki, despite being weaker than Goku, still gave him a run for his money with the clone technique (which Goku countered with the afterimage technique), and Buyon's Kevlard made him impervious to all of Goku's conventional attacks. The climactic showdown with General White was still pretty suspenseful even though we knew that both Goku and Android 8 were leagues stronger than the villain.

People always hold up DB like it's some bastion of the series where characters were all reasonably powered and every fight was decided by quick wits and clever techniques.

Not every fight, but quite a few of them. Just look at Krillin. Remember when he beat Chiaotzu by asking him math problems, or when he beat Bacterian by remembering that he doesn't have a nose, or when he almost beat Jackie Chun by throwing dirty magazines into the ring?

Krillin was never as strong as Goku, and the gap just grew as the series went on, but his skill and cleverness allowed him to be a credible threat in DB.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:28:40 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
CobraPrime Sharknado Warning from Canada Since: Dec, 1969 Relationship Status: Robosexual
Sharknado Warning
#20778: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:28:11 AM

People always hold up DB like it's some bastion of the series where characters were all reasonably powered and every fight was decided by quick wits and clever techniques.

True, but you get also fights that are about cleverness. The various world martial arts for example tended to involve cleverness.

I don't think people claim Z invented My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours. But that Z is where they overtook all the other types of fights.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:30:50 AM by CobraPrime

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20779: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:37:58 AM

I'll give you Chiaotzu, but Murasaki totally came down to a difference in power. One so great that the presence of five Murasakis failed to make it up. Goku's use of the Afterimage technique wasn't him thinking around an unbeatable foe. It was a standard part of his repertoire he simply hadn't used yet because Murasaki was so pathetic that Goku wasn't taking the fight remotely seriously until that point.

If we're going to credit "X character is no longer holding back" as thinking around the foe, then every fight in Z does it.

The same is true of Krillin, who's more of a joke fighter in DB than anything else. I'll grant you Chiaotzu, but almost against Jackie Chun doesn't count for much. He tried to think around Chun and instead got shitstomped by overwhelming power. Meanwhile, realizing he doesn't have a nose is more of a fourth-wall breaking joke than a clever technique, and one that allowed him to shitstomp Bacterion with overwhelming power.

In serious matches, Krillin was basically hopeless in DB. He was useless against General Blue, he got shitstomped in the first round of the Uranai Baba Tournament, he only got in a fair match with Goku because Goku was sandbagging, and he's killed offscreen by Tambourine to announce the commencement of the Piccolo Daimao arc.

Krillin wasn't a credible threat in DB. If anything, he was at his best as a fighter from the Saibamen battle to the end of Namek, where even though he was still constantly outmatched, he found opportunities to contribute in a positive way such as carrying the Genki-Dama for Goku or distracting Frieza. He graduated from punching bag to support character.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:40:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20780: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:44:32 AM

This is a classic case of Franchise Original Sin. People that have a problem with "Z" and the fights usually forget those same type of situations were very prevalent from the beginning of Dragon Ball.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#20781: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:56:47 AM

Seriously, pick any moment of the RRA Saga and you'll see Goku slaughtering RRA soldiers by the dozen because he's so powerful they can't hold a candle to him

Just a reminder that General Blue almost killed Goku thanks to a hypnosis technique, and only stopped because of a random mouse.

Also, between Grandpa Gohan defeating Goku by grabbing his tail, and Jackie Chun defeating him via electric submission / moon-destruction / a longer leg (dang, he beat Goku three times in that match), I'd say strategy and tricks were prevalent enough. Even in the Piccolo arcs, the Mafuba was an option.

Just saying, the power level system was there from the beginning (Goku being stronger and faster than everybody else was the default expectation), but the series also made an effort to write around that.

And like you said, it didn't necessarily stop with Z (teamwork & distractions still work, Ginyu&Guldo had unique powers, and Buu breaks the system due to his absorption and regeneration). Super seems to enjoy brining back the unique powers, too.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20782: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:00:31 AM

Yeah, I'll concede the point about Murasaki; he was more of a joke than anything else. Major Metallitron, though... that guy didn't go down easy.

Krillin wasn't a credible threat in DB. If anything, he was at his best as a fighter from the Saibamen battle to the end of Namek, where even though he was still constantly outmatched, he found opportunities to contribute in a positive way such as carrying the Genki-Dama for Goku or distracting Frieza. He graduated from punching bag to support character.

That's a little harsh, wouldn't you say? Sure, he was outmatched most of the time, but he still got a few victories, and when he lost, it wasn't always a total stomp. I'm pretty sure he put up more of a fight against Piccolo than he did against any of the villains in DBZ (with the exception of those three saibamen... and Pintar, I guess).

Hell, even Yamcha got the occasional Curb-Stomp Cushion, like when he genuinely caught Kami off guard by sending his Spirit Ball under the ring.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20783: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:09:38 AM

Also, between Grandpa Gohan defeating Goku by grabbing his tail, and Jackie Chun defeating him via electric submission / moon-destruction / a longer leg (dang, he beat Goku three times in that match), I'd say strategy and tricks were prevalent enough. Even in the Piccolo arcs, the Mafuba was an option.

I'll give you the tail thing, but the stuff with Jackie Chun totally comes down to power. Goku wasn't strong enough to break out of it until he transformed. And Chun could have easily fired that Kamehameha at Goku and killed him, it was just out kindness and worry for his student that he didn't.

edited 18th Oct '16 9:10:40 AM by LSBK

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20784: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:23:26 AM

And Chun could have easily fired that Kamehameha at Goku and killed him, it was just out kindness and worry for his student that he didn't.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned at least once during the tournament arc that killing your opponent would get you disqualified.

edited 18th Oct '16 9:23:38 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20785: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:26:45 AM

Yes, but that's not point here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20786: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:27:48 AM

Major Metallitron went down to stamina. Goku hit him really hard, he hit Goku really hard, but then his batteries ran out so Goku won by default. There wasn't a trick to that; just outlasting a tough opponent. Even then, Goku had already done quite a bit of damage by power alone before Metallitron's charge ran out.

Krillin did get a few victories, but against minor nobodies like the punks from his monastery or Bacterion. Characters who were invented solely to be first round fodder before the important characters start fighting. The best performances he puts in during DB are his tournament match against Chiaotzu - a legitimate win - and his fights with Goku and Piccolo in the 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, respectively. But the latter two are undercut by the fact that the characters were sandbagging.

Krillin's best showings before the Raditz boundary were definitely the Tenkaichi Budokais, where he got to have a neat win or two here or there. However, he was still entirely superfluous to the main action due to the tournament nature. By contrast, the more serious fights in Z gave him opportunities to carry a bit of the weight for his team despite still being hopelessly outgunned by the main villain - whereas he was basically roadkill for the RRA and Picccolo Daimao arcs.

edited 18th Oct '16 9:29:22 AM by TobiasDrake

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#20787: Oct 18th 2016 at 10:22:37 AM

Showing characters being taught specific things isn't always narratively necessary, as we can always assume that, with a timeskip, being the mentor's pupil means that they have learned the mentor's moves in the interim as a matter of course.

Same with training. If a character is offscreen training, we can thus assume that they are also learning things or developing ideas. Such that when they return with a new move, we can assume they learned it during their training. It's an easy thing to skip over, because the niceties of it don't matter so much - we see the parts that cause character development, and that's about it.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20788: Oct 18th 2016 at 11:06:51 AM

[up][up] Eh... fair enough. I like Krillin (I'm going as him for Halloween this year), but I guess he wasn't as strong in DB as I made him out to be. Plus, DBZ did give him a pretty cool technique, even though he almost never used it when he had the chance and it never worked when he did.

By the way, speaking of training and reaching new levels, the other day I got an idea for a dialogue between (Abridged) Cell and SSJ 2 Gohan for the upcoming Cell Games climax. Thought I'd share it with all of you!

Cell: N...no! This is impossible! I won't be beaten by a mere child! I am PERFECT!
Gohan: Yes, Cell. You certainly are.
Cell: ...what?
Gohan: Perfect. Adjective; having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be. Up until now, you thought your perfection was a trump card that would guarantee victory against anyone brave enough to challenge you.

But now you've seen a level beyond yours- one that you will never, ever achieve. And why? Because you're already perfect. To you, perfection is a prison: a glass ceiling that you can never hope to break. This is the level you'll always be stuck at, for the rest of your life. Which, if it's any consolation, won't be much longer.

Granted, all of this gets undermined by Cell's Saiyan DNA entitling him to zenkai boosts, but, you know... dramatic irony. (I hope I'm using that term correctly.)

[down] Thanks!

edited 18th Oct '16 11:30:45 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20789: Oct 18th 2016 at 11:26:54 AM

Savage. I love it.

Also, on the topic of Cell's zenkai, I can't wait to see TFS take the piss out of "Super Perfect" Cell.

I've always liked a quote from one of the Budokai or Tenkaichi games. I can't remember which it was, but when you transformed Cell into his Super Perfect form, he would shout, "Even MORE Perfect!"

[lol] You Keep Using That Word....

edited 18th Oct '16 11:27:43 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20790: Oct 18th 2016 at 1:32:10 PM

Some interesting discussions about how some battles are Curb stomps, how important power is, and especially, how Frieza being as ridiculously strong as he was completely changed everything.

I do wish Toriyama had allowed the Kienzan to be more useful. I don't think we ever see anyone try to block it in the manga, so it's hard to tell if it can, but the fact that Vegeta told Nappa to avoid it when Nappa was many times stronger says a lot about how formidable the technique is.

I really do wish that Toriyama hadn't kept upping the power levels when Cell and the Androids came, and instead focused on other aspects of their abilities (especially for the former).

You could have gotten far more mileage out of the Androids energy absorption, lack of Ki, and infinite energy generators then the whole we're just more powerful then you are.

....I think I had more to say, but I seem to have forgotten it, so I'll end things here. Plus, you've all heard me complain about this before, and I'm not saying anything really new.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20791: Oct 18th 2016 at 1:54:18 PM

Yes, it is a pretty great technique. The one time the Kienzan is ever seen to fail is when it shatters on Perfect Cell's shoulders, and that's filler. Unnecessary filler at that, because Toei could just as easily have had Cell regenerate from the hit. He didn't need to No-Sell it to prove how tough he is. It's Krillin.

Against Nappa, it's demonstrably capable of slicing through his flesh and would have taken his head clean off if Vegeta hadn't warned him despite a power difference of 1,770 to 4,000. Even more impressive was when it proved just as potent against Frieza despite a difference of 75,000 to over 1 million.

In terms of its cutting edge, the Kienzan is easily capable of slicing through enemies far more powerful than Krillin himself. Its chief disadvantage is reaction time. There's only so fast Krillin can throw it, and this is where the limitation of his battle power comes into play. Without the element of surprise, it's child's play to dodge.

It also has limited utility, especially against the big villains. Cell and Majin Buu are both regenerators while Frieza's weird alien biology means that even slicing him to pieces won't kill him. Had Krillin succeeded in cutting him in half with his Kienzan after blinding him like fans hammer on about, Frieza would have been pretty pissed and may have rageblasted Krillin into giblets sooner, but that's about all it would accomplish. And the damage would promptly be undone as soon as he transformed again.

So it's certainly not a beat-all end-all technique. But it's still pretty cool and remarkably impressive for someone of Krillin's caliber.

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#20792: Oct 18th 2016 at 2:04:11 PM

It's still a What AN Idiot for the fact he doesn't actually try it. I mean, the only fights he's truly a major part of are the Saiyan fights and Frieza... now, he never does the 1-2 combo against the Saiyans, and he has no idea that Freiza's Bizarre A Lien Biology means that anything short of disintegration won't kill him.

Not to mention any of the Ginyu Fights where this would have been stupendously useful.

[up][up] Yeah, I got kinda sad when the energy absorbing Androids got absorbed by Androids that... just were super strong. Not only because it was dull, but because ''how the flying hell does a dude build something that unnecessarily strong". 19 and 20 being leagues stronger than Frieza were already stretching incredulity even as kid, but then he introduced some that are even stronger.

Cell gets a pass for being something so entirely different, though.

edited 18th Oct '16 2:06:40 PM by Larkmarn

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#20793: Oct 18th 2016 at 2:19:48 PM

Seriously, the abridged series made this song heart-explodingly sweet, instead of sad.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20795: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:01:54 PM

It also has limited utility, especially against the big villains. Cell and Majin Buu are both regenerators while Frieza's weird alien biology means that even slicing him to pieces won't kill him. Had Krillin succeeded in cutting him in half with his Kienzan after blinding him like fans hammer on about, Frieza would have been pretty pissed and may have rageblasted Krillin into giblets sooner, but that's about all it would accomplish. And the damage would promptly be undone as soon as he transformed again.

Glad to see someone else talk up how great the attack is. Though sadly, this is a reminder that technique is only useful when you have a strong enough battle power.

The Kienzan isn't useless. It's just useless for Krillin because he's too weak. To say nothing of the other examples you bring up (a dude who can survive being bisected, and the two regenerators).

It just further hammers home my frustration at the Power creep and how having a higher ki is the end all and be all of nearly every fight. Sure there are exception like Ginyu, but even that's only because Goku didn't blast him right away (which he wouldn't do because he'd already decided there was no point in the fight). If we had reversed things and had a hero with such a technique, it'd likely be useless due to a number of reasons like being too slow, or taking too long etc.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20796: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:05:51 PM

Had Krillin succeeded in cutting him in half with his Kienzan after blinding him like fans hammer on about, Frieza would have been pretty pissed and may have rageblasted Krillin into giblets sooner,

Freeza was helpless after he sliced himself in half, why would it be different if Krillin did it?

edited 18th Oct '16 7:06:10 PM by Soble

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20797: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:07:07 PM

That was because he was already super beaten up and bleeding energy. That wouldn't be the case when he was just in his second form.

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#20798: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:16:36 PM

His second form is also weaker so it might hurt a lot more to be cut in half like that. And besides, if he's stuck like that, how would he get a chance to transform considering he hadn't brought up the other two forms until his fight with Piccolo.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20799: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:18:24 PM

What does him not having brought them up have to do with them existing?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#20800: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:23:01 PM

The Kienzan isn't useless. It's just useless for Krillin because he's too weak.

This is wrong. Goku calls the technique worthless when Freeza used it (or something just like it) against him. The main problem with the Kienzan is that it's super slow and makes a lot of noise so you'd have to be not paying attention and deaf in order to get hit by it.

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