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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20751: Oct 7th 2016 at 2:01:08 PM

I'll answer these in order:

  • Vegeta is most likely dead, either because of Krillin or because he ran into Freiza after escaping.
  • The movie 2-4 side timeline lining back up with Frieza makes no sense to me. I think it should have ended after Lord Slug, because they don't have a reason to visit Namek there.
  • That's easily the biggest issue I have with this fan chart. Somehow Dead Zone is a split timeline that straight up skips the Saiyans and Namek, then lines back up with the Garlic Jr saga which somehow still happens in the main timeline despite Dead Zone being split.
  • See what I mean by the chart being somewhat arbitrary in choosing what goes on and what ends?
  • Bojacks's film seems to take place in a different timeline altogether when you remember Goku is dead.
  • I think it's a continuation of the Bojack timeline, which includes both Broly 1 and the timeline where Babadi is defeated.
  • I really don't know why it's down there, but yeah it should be earlier in the split.
  • Safe to say they do, since Tarble is hinted at in Battle of Gods.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#20752: Oct 7th 2016 at 2:02:54 PM

But, esentially, we agree that the movies must happen in alternate timelines where things went better for the heroes and thus some other bull shit threat had to crop up to ruin their day.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20754: Oct 7th 2016 at 3:04:21 PM

Probably the big one - If Vegeta defeats Semi-Perfect Cell, then why is Goku dead in Bojack Unbound?

I missed that, but it's a good point, though it seems that question has already been answered.

Bojacks's film seems to take place in a different timeline altogether when you remember Goku is dead.

Which is really shouldn't. Bojack's movie is one of the few movies that could conceivably fit in the regular timeline as it:

  • Takes place just after Cell's defeat, during the time skip, which we know little about;

  • Is solved quickly without having any long term effects on anything;

  • Step Three Profit.

Right, I had more, but forgot them. Point is, there's less effort to slip it into the timeline then all the other movies, outside of Trunks being there (since Super seems to imply that he never came back after his last trip to the past), and maybe some other details as well that are currently slipping my mind.

But we've gone over this (with me almost always being the one who brings it up) so I'll end it until the next time I feel like going on a rant about it.

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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#20755: Oct 8th 2016 at 2:30:16 AM

It's not much of a stretch to assume Trunks came back at one point. Both Cell's timeline and his timeline imply after he defeats the Androids, he attempts to go back in time to tell them he succeeded.

And hey, in Super, Bulma had to find out his hair was blue in SOME way....

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20756: Oct 8th 2016 at 5:52:27 AM

Oh yeah, that movie timeline thing that was floating around. One fan's headcanon that doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well.

Trunks' inclusion in movies is pretty easy to explain. When he travels back in time, it splits the timeline. So you can just say the main timeline is the one where he didn't go back X additional times after the Cell arc was resolved.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20757: Oct 8th 2016 at 10:30:53 AM

That could work.

Also, I'm annoyed at myself for forgetting that he was going to come back after beating 17 and 18.

It's how Cell goes back in time when he kills him in one timeline, and it's how Trunks puts an end to the whole deal (at least until Babidi and later Black show up) in in the series as well.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20758: Oct 8th 2016 at 5:54:35 PM

Reminiscing about Future Trunks must be awkward.

  • Goku: How do you think he's doing these days?
  • Gohan: Not existing.
  • Goku: Wha?
  • Gohan: He's from a parallel timeline years into the future. There is no equivalent point in time where he comes from that we can use as a point of reference to determine an answer to that question. It's not like our timelines progress in tandem with each other, where three years here represents three years there.
  • Goku: Do you taste copper?
  • Gohan: He could spend thirty minutes there and then come back here five years down the line. And then go back for six days before coming back three years before we first met him. "Now" is an entirely subjective point of reference with very limited utility when time travel is involved.
  • Goku: ...so how do you think he's doing these days?
  • Gohan: (facepalm) He's fine, dad. He's probably fine.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#20759: Oct 8th 2016 at 6:11:15 PM

Meanwhile, in the future...

  • Trunks: OH GOD, EVERYTHING'S PAIN!

  • Black Goku: Ningen....

edited 8th Oct '16 6:11:28 PM by Zelenal

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20760: Oct 8th 2016 at 6:14:37 PM

Speaking of Super, I image if they do that, they'll replace Zeno with Popo or throw in a line about him only being King of Everything because Popo didn't want the job or something.

And I don't mean that as complaining, it just seems like something they'd do.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#20761: Oct 8th 2016 at 8:34:31 PM

[up][up][up]Actually no, that isn't how it works. In the Super manga, Trunks explicitly had to go to the main timeline 17 years in the past, because he split the timeline by going back 17 years the first time, lest he split the timeline again. It really is a 1:1 ratio of time units between timelines.

edited 8th Oct '16 8:36:34 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#20762: Oct 8th 2016 at 8:44:17 PM

[up][up] It would kill the joke completely.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20763: Oct 8th 2016 at 9:52:21 PM

[up][up] And yet he had no trouble simply hopping to a point three years ahead of his first visit. And then Cell, sometime later, would proceed to take his time machine back to a point one year before Trunks arrived.

edited 8th Oct '16 9:53:01 PM by TobiasDrake

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#20764: Oct 8th 2016 at 10:09:22 PM

That was also three years for Trunks, in his timeline. Cell split the timestream again when he went back in time.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20765: Oct 8th 2016 at 10:14:14 PM

That's not how it works in the original manga though.

  • Trunks goes back roughly 20 years to warn Goku et al about the Androids, while delivering the heart virus medicine. He then returns to his own timeline.
  • Trunks stays in his own timeline while the time machine recharges for another round trip. In Trunks: The Story (the manga version of The History of Trunks) Bulma says that this takes eight months to charge.
  • After that, he travels back in time to when the Androids attack. This is the first instance where the passage for time is not 1:1, unless Trunks did not travel immediately. However, if he spends a full three years in his own timeline, then that screws up the below...
  • From Cell's timeline, he travels three years ahead of Trunks' (which is age 788) and arrives one year before Trunks originally did.

If Trunks spends 3 years between his first two trips that moves everything else forward 2 years and 4 months and screws up a whole bunch of things.

edited 8th Oct '16 10:16:18 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#20766: Oct 8th 2016 at 10:17:31 PM

Shortly after Trunks arrives the second time - when he's searching for the others who are presently engaged with Android 20 - he also mentions that he undershot the point in time he was trying to hit and would totes take the Time Machine back further but he barely has enough fuel for one more jump to get him home, so he has to make due with being late.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#20767: Oct 13th 2016 at 8:31:55 AM

Can Roshi sense power levels? When was that even introduced? I want to say it started at about the same time as flying, but I can't recall it ever being used until the switch over to Z, where it seemed like everyone knew how to do it suddenly. If he could, wouldn't he have used that ability to observe the fight during the Saiyan invasion after the TV went out?

edited 13th Oct '16 8:33:01 AM by WillKeaton

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#20768: Oct 13th 2016 at 8:38:17 AM

I actually don't remember if it was ever directly brought up, but Goku shocks and amazes Kame-sennin with feats of strength the latter assumed impossible from him enough times that I'm inclined to say no, he can't. But I could be wrong on that.

The ability to sense energy was introduced late in the Piccolo arc, when Goku drank the magic murder water at God's Lookout and the power was awakened within him.

IIRC, the rest of the cast picked it up after training under God in preparation for the Saiyans' arrival. Krillin, at the very least, didn't seem to have the skill when he mouthed off to Raditz and got tailslapped through a house for his trouble.

edited 13th Oct '16 8:40:14 AM by TobiasDrake

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20769: Oct 14th 2016 at 2:23:48 AM

Roshi can indeed sense ki. During the Boo arc, right before the tournament's final match, he comments on the different large ki gathering in one point (that being Goku's group at Babidi's ship).

Earlier in the manga, there are some moments of Early-Installment Weirdness that could be characters using ki sensing, but they're not explained that way because the concept wasn't developed yet.

Right in the first arc, Goku is able to sense the presence of people in the village Oolong is terrorizing. That throwaway line is all we get, though. Then in the Red Ribbon Army arc, Roshi is impressed by Blue's ability to mask his "fighting spirit" which is very similar to suppressing ki. However, there are other concepts in the series that are similar but different.

The first clear usage of ki sensing comes from Goku sensing Daimao's ki after drinking the holy water, yes. BUT that doesn't actually make him the first to gain that ability - while Goku fights Daimao, Tenshinhan comments on how huge Daimao's ki is. So he at the very least possessed the ability before training with God.

edited 14th Oct '16 2:23:57 AM by Saiga

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#20770: Oct 14th 2016 at 5:41:21 AM

Yeah, before there was the defined "Ah, I sense your ki. It's at 412" there was always a vague "Oh, I sense his power" more akin to old kung fu flicks where someone can tell someone's fighting spirit. He's definitely had moments of My Significance Sense Is Tingling, for sure.

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WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#20771: Oct 15th 2016 at 10:22:54 AM

For that matter, when did Gohan learn to sense ki? I recall him and Krillin flying away from the Gokau and Vegeta battle, then sensing Goku's ki dropping and turning around, but I don't recall Gohan being able to sense Nappa and Vegeta approaching his position. I know he definitely could sense ki by the time he arrived on Namek.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#20772: Oct 15th 2016 at 10:26:46 AM

He was explicitly told to sense Yamcha and the Saibamen's ki instead of futilely looking for them with his eyes.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20773: Oct 15th 2016 at 4:10:35 PM

Yeah. That was when it happened.

Funny how little actual teaching goes on in DBZ. There's lots of training, but we rarely see anyone actually LEARNING new techniques. Most seem to just pick them up after seeing or finding out about them.

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TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20774: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:36:40 AM

[up] Well, see, in the context of DBZ, "training" is really just a way to increase your power level and/or unlock a new form.

That's one of the problems I have with DBZ. In Dragon Ball, Goku and couldn't always win via brute force alone. Sometimes he had to use his wits, or exploit one of his opponent's weaknesses, or take an unconventional approach. That's part of what made his fight against Jackie Chun so wildly entertaining.

The battles in DBZ just aren't as fun, because they almost always boil down to, "My Kung-Fu Is Stronger Than Yours," or, alternately, "My kung fu is weaker than yours, but I have the Spirit Bomb, so nyeh."

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#20775: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:50:38 AM

[up][up] Yeah, it's almost RPG-like in that regard. "You've leveled up! You have learned Kien-zan!"

[up] Seconded. Any time the fights in DBZ aren't just based around power is a genuine surprise.

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