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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20476: Sep 30th 2016 at 4:48:17 AM

It's also super mild considering that Kuririn has both dreamed about being raped and implied to have actually been raped in a music video.

Very odd that of all the scenes we're discussing, only the one involving a woman (imagining) being raped is an issue.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20477: Sep 30th 2016 at 7:40:41 AM

I didn't even know that was something Kaiser had issue with.

I mean if it bothers you that much don't use the same kind of joke again.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#20478: Sep 30th 2016 at 7:51:29 AM

Except the joke was rough consensual sex, and it is to be adressed on the next episode?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20479: Sep 30th 2016 at 7:53:52 AM

The bulma having a rape dream of vegeta seems mild considering the fact saiyans could probably be compared to Vikings with the whole rape and pillaging. They just take your planet to be sold.

It's the context that makes it really squicky. Bulma having a nightmare of Vegeta raping her wouldn't have been half as problematic if not for the fact that Bulma starts consensually sleeping with Vegeta not long after that.

It'd still be problematic for being a rape joke at the victim's expense, but it wouldn't have that double-whammy of Bulma leaping straight from "afraid of being raped by Vegeta" to "eagerly sexing him up".

However, as Saiga pointed out, Krillin gets it much worse and that's never really brought up.

edited 30th Sep '16 7:54:36 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20480: Sep 30th 2016 at 8:00:13 AM

Except the joke was rough consensual sex, and it is to be adressed on the next episode?

Uh-huh.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#20481: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:08:16 AM

What did Goku say about Vegeta before the theme started?

"He's like a ______ Saiyan" or something?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20482: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:11:50 AM

However, as Saiga pointed out, Krillin gets it much worse and that's never really brought up.

I don't know whether that's the result of a double standard against men or the fact that it's just business as usual for Krillin.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20483: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:22:07 AM

It's both. Krillin IS the Butt-Monkey and him being raped by Popo and tentacle-raped in a dream was part of that, but nobody would really consider "getting hilariously raped" to be acceptable comedy material for a female Butt-Monkey.

Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil is considered to be in full effect for even the slightest mention of a female character being raped. But when male characters are raped or threatened with rape, it's considered harmless and funny. Both of these approaches are extremely problematic and help contribute to the general atmosphere of Rape Culture.

edited 30th Sep '16 10:23:03 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20484: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:33:57 AM

It's the context that makes it really squicky. Bulma having a nightmare of Vegeta raping her wouldn't have been half as problematic if not for the fact that Bulma starts consensually sleeping with Vegeta not long after that.

Considering she ends up sleeping with him despite the fact that not that long ago he had her friends murdered and nearly blew up the planet. With or without the dream Vegeta is pretty much a horrible person to sometime between cell games and the saiyaman saga.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20485: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:41:03 AM

Her friends were resurrected and the planet didn't get blown up so, y'know, water under the bridge. Nobody ever claimed that Bulma was a good person. First thing she ever did in the series was run over a child with her car and then proceed to lie, cheat, and manipulate him into helping her abuse infinite cosmic power for petty and selfish reasons.

She may be the only protagonist who has literally enslaved a sentient being.

Nightmare-raping her is different from his actual crimes because it has nothing to do with him and everything to do with her and how she sees him. It presents her as fearfully intimidated by his power and dominance, which doesn't really sit well when combined with the actual sexual relationship the characters would go on to have.

And it does it for the sake of a fairly shallow joke. It doesn't really add anything to the character, just sets up the punchline of Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan interrupting her dream to swipe the Dragon Ball she's guarding with Actual Vegeta shouting, "Your hair looks stupid!"

edited 30th Sep '16 10:43:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20486: Sep 30th 2016 at 10:57:50 AM

Nobody ever claimed that Bulma was a good person.

Well the Dragonballs... kind of did.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20487: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:11:22 AM

Well he is the guy that left the strongest person she knows a broken mess that had to sit in the hospital so not hard to believe she was intimidated by that. She is obviously no saint, but a lot better in the moral department then vegeta especially since when he died he was probably in hell.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20488: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:11:44 AM

[up][up] No, Porunga just declared her to not be "very evil".

[up] The point is that if she's so afraid of Vegeta that she's actually having nightmares about him raping her, then having her openly flirting with him and inviting him to live with her shortly after is bad writing. It's a bad joke, plain and simple.

edited 30th Sep '16 11:13:52 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
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#20489: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:23:20 AM

Her friends were resurrected and the planet didn't get blown up so, y'know, water under the bridge. Nobody ever claimed that Bulma was a good person. First thing she ever did in the series was run over a child with her car and then proceed to lie, cheat, and manipulate him into helping her abuse infinite cosmic power for petty and selfish reasons.

Incorrect

First thing she ever did in the series was run over a child with her car and then proceed to shoot him repeatedly when he failed to die THEN proceed to lie, cheat, and manipulate him into helping her abuse infinite cosmic power for petty and selfish reasons.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20490: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:27:14 AM

Yeah, but I wasn't holding the gunshots against her. At that point, Goku had not only survived the car crash, but picked up and threw her car.

She's responsible for accidentally starting the fight but I can't blame her for thinking her life was in danger and resorting to further violence at that point. Self-preservation instinct took over.

edited 30th Sep '16 11:27:59 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#20491: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:27:53 AM

That's a pretty important part left out. :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
CobraPrime Sharknado Warning from Canada Since: Dec, 1969 Relationship Status: Robosexual
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#20492: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:30:33 AM

I will also point out that she's shot him again later for failing at laundry.

(Yes, she knew by that point he was Immune to Bullets)

edited 30th Sep '16 11:30:54 AM by CobraPrime

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20493: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:33:05 AM

In Bulma's defense, if you lived in a world where you can be jumped by giant, sword-wielding bears, or snatched off the ground by pterodactyls and never seen again, and then some kid with a tail showed up, lifted your car, and threw it several meters, you'd probably shoot first and ask questions later too.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20494: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:35:20 AM

Indeed. Like I said, she started it by being a bad driver, but like, if you accidentally hit a bear with your car and the bear gets pissed off and starts breaking mirrors and trying to claw its way inside, nobody's first instinct would be, "This is my fault. I should just let it eat me."

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#20495: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:35:27 AM

I'd say that Shenron's powers are actually semi-phenomal, nearly-cosmic.

My various fanfics.
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#20496: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:36:18 AM

Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil is considered to be in full effect for even the slightest mention of a female character being raped. But when male characters are raped or threatened with rape, it's considered harmless and funny. Both of these approaches are extremely problematic and help contribute to the general atmosphere of Rape Culture.

Agreed, which is why I'm glad that people are speaking out against the Chi Chi/ Goku rape joke, even if I was only a little put off by it the first time I saw it.

And I really don't buy the whole "Goku's a super saiyan, he should have just fought back" justification. Maybe the reason he didn't try to resist is because he's so much stronger than her. Remember that he accidentally sent her crashing through a wall by patting her on the back; he knows that he can seriously hurt her if he's not super duper careful.

That said, Tobias, I think you're being a little too hard on Bulma. I just started binge watching the original Dragon Ball, and while I found teenage Bulma to be surprisingly unlikable, I don't think she's quite as bad as you're making her out to be.

First of all, hitting Goku with her car was an accident. You can argue that she should have been paying more attention to the road, but she was driving in the middle of nowhere, not down a highway or a busy city street. You can't really fault her for not keeping an eye out for children.

And yes, she was pursuing the Dragon Balls for selfish reasons, but really, who wasn't? Oolong wanted a harem, Yamcha wanted to get rid of his fear of women, and Emperor Pilaf wanted to rule the world. There's a reason why Goku was the only one pure enough to ride the Nimbus (at least for a while).

EDIT: Ninja'd several times over. >_<

edited 30th Sep '16 11:37:02 AM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#20497: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:36:51 AM

Just gonna clear something up here: Bulma never actually hit Goku with her car. She swerved and stopped before making contact.

Also, I never really had a problem with the 'Bulma dreams about Vegeta raping her' because I thought the point of the joke was that it was an erotic fantasy of hers, foreshadowing their future relationship, only for her alone time fantasy to be jarringly ended by Vegeta shutting it down by focusing only on her hair, calling it stupid, revealing to her that he's just as dumb and immature as everyone else, and not a 'bad boy' who would find her ravishing.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#20498: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:44:51 AM

First of all, hitting Goku with her car was an accident. You can argue that she should have been paying more attention to the road, but she was driving in the middle of nowhere, not down a highway or a busy city street. You can't really fault her for not keeping an eye out for children.

And yes, she was pursuing the Dragon Balls for selfish reasons, but really, who wasn't? Oolong wanted a harem, Yamcha wanted to get rid of his fear of women, and Emperor Pilaf wanted to rule the world. There's a reason why Goku was the only one pure enough to ride the Nimbus (at least for a while).

That was just a brief summary, but the point is the extreme lengths she went to in order to achieve something as petty and shallow as wishing for a boyfriend. She literally enslaves Oolong and forces him to do her bidding and she recruits Goku through manipulative deception - specifically, by withholding the knowledge that his Grandpa's Four-Star Ball is going to disappear after the wish is made.

It's true that Oolong and Yamcha also go to extreme measures to obtain the Dragon Balls for petty and selfish reasons, but like, they're the villains.Hey!  That Bulma is comparable to the villains of the arc is not a mark in her favor. Everyone involved in the chase for the Dragon Balls is kind of an ass, because Dragon Ball isn't a series where you're supposed to admire the protagonists for their upstanding moral values. It started as a comedy series about over-the-top assholes being awful to each other for the audience's lulz.

And it largely stayed that way, even as the comedy elements died down. With a few exceptions, it's essentially a cast of murderers, thieves, and assholes united by a shared love of being punched in the face by Goku. Vegeta isn't special for being the team genocidal monster when he's on a side that includes someone who thinks enslaving sentient beings is cool, someone who aspired to be the world's greatest contract killer, and literally Satan.

Goku's social group is populated almost entirely by amoral assholes he defeated in martial combat, and short though their altercation may have been, Bulma's the first on that list.

While Goku himself is just as flawed.

edited 30th Sep '16 11:51:21 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
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#20499: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:51:26 AM

And yes, she was pursuing the Dragon Balls for selfish reasons, but really, who wasn't? Oolong wanted a harem, Yamcha wanted to get rid of his fear of women, and Emperor Pilaf wanted to rule the world. There's a reason why Goku was the only one pure enough to ride the Nimbus (at least for a while).

One could argue Yamcha's actually better off, he's trying to get rid of a crippling fear that basically makes it impossible for him to live in civilization when he's terrified of 50% of the population. Let alone have a normal life.

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#20500: Sep 30th 2016 at 11:53:06 AM

Of course, given how abruptly he gets over it as soon as he spends more than five minutes in the company of a woman, it still comes off as shallow and petty. He wanted to use infinite cosmic power to cure himself of a flaw that takes only the slightest amount of effort to accomplish.

Yamcha got his wish in a Wizard of Oz sort of way. The power to speak to women was within him all along.

Bulma, meanwhile, had her wish for a perfect boyfriend screwed into a relationship with Yamcha. That's not a dig at Yamcha, that has more to do with how consistently miserable their relationship is throughout the series.

edited 30th Sep '16 11:54:43 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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