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Dragon Ball Z Abridged

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#20151: Sep 8th 2016 at 10:07:53 AM

In my subjective opinion Saiga is overthinking things and the explanations for Cooler's line make sense to me. Obviously it wasn't what was intended by the creators but if it fits that doesn't bother me.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20152: Sep 8th 2016 at 10:16:24 AM

I'm not really sure how he's overthinking it but at the same time this isn't really getting us anywhere.

We can all agree that power levels and how the characters fight in the movies are even wonkier than they are in main story right?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#20153: Sep 8th 2016 at 10:18:18 AM

Freeza was always really quick to transform or pull more power out of his ass, saying it's likely he'd get killed in a lower form is misunderstanding his character if not inventing things whole cloth.

He tries fighting Vegeta briefly in his First Form. It's only after Vegeta goads him into revealing his "true form" that Frieza transforms to Second. It's not a necessary transformation because Frieza's First Form is more than enough to handle Vegeta, but Frieza doesn't know that because he can't sense battle power.

Frieza is overconfident yet also cautious regarding his own battle power. Because he can't sense energy without a Scouter, he has to take a shot in the dark at how much will be necessary for a given foe and prefers to err on the side of too much over too little - but only after he's been unexpectedly challenged.

Frieza's comfort level is a consistent, reliable curbstomp, but he has to make educated guesses at what level that is and prefers to overshoot than under. So even though his First Form is twice as powerful as Vegeta, Vegeta's too close to it for comfort and openly goads him into revealing his true power, so Freiza transforms.

Then Piccolo shows up and he also doesn't hold a candle to Frieza's Second Form but, again, he's too close for Frieza's comfort, so Frieza transforms. In both these cases, his transformation is triggered by an adversary who Frieza does outmatch, but not as much as he wants to be, and he only knows that after he's spent a little time clashing with them.

Third transformation was completely gratuitous because at that point he was just showing off, but with Goku, he powers up to 50% because - again - comfort zone of a reliable curbstomp. And even that proves woefully insufficient on two occasions, forcing him to draw on even more of his power at the last second as an attack more powerful than he was anticipating is about to hit him.

Frieza tries to be cautious and keep a safe gap between his own power and his foe's, but he's undermined by his inability to reliably know how strong his enemy is and also his own narcissistic egotism. Frieza is the most powerful being in the universe and he knows it. His default temperament is "LOL, it's funny that you think you can challenge me. Go ahead and try it."

Thus, in a hypothetical scenario where Goku showed up at 3 million while Frieza was still in his First Form and Goku also didn't have the temperament we know and love from him, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where Goku obliterates Frieza before the latter even has a chance to realize he's outclassed in this form and change up.

...I mean, I'm not arguing that Cooler would know any of this or that it would weigh into his calculations. "Toei is Toei" is the best answer for Cooler. Just saying, the idea of killing Frieza before he transforms isn't an unworkable one.

edited 8th Sep '16 10:19:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#20154: Sep 8th 2016 at 12:59:54 PM

I wouldn't say Saiga was overthinking things. I mean, he's basically right- that probably was the intention behind that the line, and 'Toei being Toei' is a perfectly logically explanation for any discrepancies.

The question, though, is 'why should we care about that?' Why should we care about Toei's intentions? Why should we care about whether or not Cooler's line is meaningful?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20155: Sep 8th 2016 at 1:10:55 PM

Because you're discussing Cooler at all. Someone would have inevitably brought up what Saiga did about him.

edited 8th Sep '16 1:14:41 PM by VeryMelon

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20156: Sep 8th 2016 at 1:14:45 PM

Say what you want about Goku's less than stellar handling of the situation, but actually seeing him give up and the characters reaction to it and his announcement are going to be hilarious.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#20157: Sep 8th 2016 at 1:14:57 PM

The line about Saiga overthinking it seems disingenuous to me given that this discussion has been going on for several pages now.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#20158: Sep 8th 2016 at 1:17:42 PM

Yeah, Saiga's just generally encyclopedic (not necessarily always right) about DBZ manga vs anime canon.

You're all going on forever about this, though.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#20159: Sep 8th 2016 at 2:04:49 PM

I don't think anyone is overthinking anything because I don't think anyone can ever overthink anything.

Thinking is a thing you always need to do more and can't ever overdo.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#20160: Sep 8th 2016 at 2:20:03 PM

Yeah you can...you can always overdose.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#20161: Sep 8th 2016 at 3:09:49 PM

Decided to rewatch the Abridged Freeza fight on a whim, and I'm thinking about rewatching Namek.

Goku threatening to break Freeza like a Kit-Kat Bar is the best thing.

edited 8th Sep '16 3:11:21 PM by Karxrida

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#20162: Sep 8th 2016 at 3:11:19 PM

"Gimme a break, Gimme a break, Break me off a piece of that Frie-Za Bar!",

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
optimusjamie Since: Jun, 2010
#20163: Sep 9th 2016 at 2:07:11 AM

We finally have an answer to WEN BROLY.

Direct all enquiries to Jamie B Good
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20164: Sep 9th 2016 at 2:47:44 AM

No i am pretty sure i am always right

And if i am always right, than I am right about being right. Therefore, I am right.

Being a buzzkill is a noble, yet thankless calling.

@Tobias - Freeza didn't need a scouter to see how much Vegeta struggled to hold Freeza off briefly. He knew he outmatched Vegeta.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#20165: Sep 9th 2016 at 4:21:45 AM

@Saiga: Nope. waii

Watch Symphogear
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#20166: Sep 9th 2016 at 6:20:39 AM

The endless debate of power levels continues :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#20168: Sep 9th 2016 at 9:40:56 AM

@Tobias - Freeza didn't need a scouter to see how much Vegeta struggled to hold Freeza off briefly. He knew he outmatched Vegeta.

He assumes right off the bat that he outmatches Vegeta because that's what Frieza does. Vegeta boasts about how he's become a Super Saiyan, Frieza assumes he's blowing smoke, then they clash briefly. When Frieza's scouter explodes, he actually concedes that Vegeta might not have been entirely full of bluster when he was bragging earlier.

Krillin notices that Frieza's still pretty calm, but before anyone has a chance to go anywhere from there, Vegeta starts demanding that Frieza transform and show his "real" power. To which Frieza complies.

Without the Scouter, Frieza doesn't know exactly how powerful Vegeta is, but it's enough for Frieza to agree that Vegeta's bravado might not be as empty as he'd previously assumed. Not enough to worry him, as Krillin notes, but enough for him to raise his level as soon as Vegeta starts in again.

edited 9th Sep '16 9:42:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20170: Sep 9th 2016 at 11:12:40 AM

It really does seem like a conversation for the general Dragon Ball thread at this point.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#20171: Sep 9th 2016 at 11:27:42 AM

Did Cooler even say that line in the abridged version?

By the way, schedule update

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20172: Sep 9th 2016 at 12:48:13 PM

Being a buzzkill is a noble, yet thankless calling.

Maybe you should consider rejecting that call. I mean, we were all just having a discussion of a theoretical scenario. We know full well Cooler and his claims just can't fit unless some significant changes are made to the overall story (which, considering the anime version of Resurrection F, is possible).

Was this really something that needed to be buzz killed? It's not like anyone was seriously trying to insist it could fit, just trying to come up with ways it could fit.

This is the kind of stuff that gets people de-Poped. Just so you know.

So in short, if you don't stop, I will steal you Pope Hat. And never give it back.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#20173: Sep 9th 2016 at 1:11:35 PM

It was a serious discussion...worth of the president king himself.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20174: Sep 9th 2016 at 1:30:02 PM

Personally, I always love it when Saiga goes all thorough and "buzzkilly", but maybe I'm just an asshole like that.

edited 9th Sep '16 1:32:16 PM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20175: Sep 9th 2016 at 1:31:19 PM

I never saw it as Saiga "being a buzzkill" in the first place.


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