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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#20126: Sep 7th 2016 at 10:58:13 AM

I honestly forget the bird stuff whenever I think about the movie, and you could kind of write it off that Goku's moment of unbridled rage is that he's about to lose, he's about to fail, and everyone he's ever known or loved is about to die and there's nothing he can-

I still wonder to this day if Toei did this intentionally as a reference. I need to look up when the Cooler film came out because the symbolism here is too real. Still probably the best Super Saiyan transformation in the franchise.

edited 7th Sep '16 10:59:21 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20127: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:02:13 AM

Didn't someone posit, maybe even Saiga himself, that the Cooler movies take place in a canon where the Spirit Bomb killed Freeza?

That was me posting this link to a fanmade timeline hypothesizing when each film could have happened.

edited 7th Sep '16 11:02:41 AM by VeryMelon

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#20128: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:03:08 AM

When Goku picked up the dying bird and called him Toriyama I thought it was a strange way to include a reference to the creator of Dragonball. Then I got worried that Toriyama had died and that this was Team Four Star's way of acknowledging his passing.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#20129: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:08:50 AM

I'd like to point out that there was no way in hell Goku could have ever beaten Frieza without both Super Saiyan and that final Zenkai; if it was just Early Namek Goku vs Frieza, then Goku would need a Kaio-ken x6 in order to beat Frieza at his weakest, and Kaio-ken x10 would still be weaker than Frieza's second restriction state. Even if Goku went Kaio-ken x20, which he probably couldn't even do at that point, Frieza would probably still be ahead of him once he transformed again.

edited 7th Sep '16 11:09:23 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#20130: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:40:31 AM

Actually, by the time Goku entered the fray, Freeza was already in his final form, so there was no way for Goku to kill him without convincing Freeza to revert to a weaker form.

  • Frieza: Alrighty then, Final Form it is!
  • Krillin: Personally, I was a bigger fan of the First Form.
  • Piccolo: I'd settle for Second, really.
  • ~Episode 26, Alien v. Piccolo

Would that even be out of character for Freeza?

Actually, no. Frieza can't sense battle power, so in a hypothetical world where post-zenkai Goku met Frieza at First Form and wasn't willing to f*ck around, Goku could have easily killed him before Frieza had a chance to realize how outmatched he is in this state and transform.

Which would be out of character for Goku, but Cooler doesn't really know him that well.

When Goku picked up the dying bird and called him Toriyama I thought it was a strange way to include a reference to the creator of Dragonball. Then I got worried that Toriyama had died and that this was Team Four Star's way of acknowledging his passing.

The "Tori" means bird, and Toriyama once referenced it with the studio name "Tori Studio" or "Bird Studio".

edited 7th Sep '16 11:41:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#20131: Sep 7th 2016 at 11:50:21 AM

Toriyama's avatar is also interchangeably a humanoid wind-up bird and a robot with a gas mask face.

edited 7th Sep '16 11:52:19 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#20132: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:05:57 PM

[up][up]Well, to be fair, he did kind of wreck Burter and Recoome's faces pretty fast without giving them much of a chance.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#20133: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:09:53 PM

He didn't kill them, that's the point.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#20134: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:12:23 PM

They also weren't conscious enough to actually do anything like transform.

I think Frieza probably can't transform while unconscious.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#20135: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:42:58 PM

Plus, Vegeta probably would have killed him like he did with the others, unless Goku stopped him.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#20136: Sep 7th 2016 at 12:50:24 PM

And Cooler didn't know Goku well enough to know Goku wouldn't kill someone he blindsided.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#20137: Sep 7th 2016 at 1:06:05 PM

"I killed your brother."

"That still doesn't make us friends!" / "So... ha-ha funny?"

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20138: Sep 7th 2016 at 1:24:23 PM

Cooler also wouldn't know what exactly happened on namek beyond frezia was killed by a saiyan. It leaves room for him to make a lot of assumptions.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#20139: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:11:13 PM

Plus he hates his little brother, so of course he would assume he got killed because he was stupid.

You tend to undersell people you hate.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20140: Sep 8th 2016 at 1:58:51 AM

And aaaaall of that leads to him saying a line that would make far less sense than going with the simple explanation that Toei doesn't portray things the same way the manga does... like in every other Toei work.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20141: Sep 8th 2016 at 4:24:47 AM

I don't see how the line really matters when the character does not know what happened on namek. The only thing he knows is Goku killed his brother.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#20142: Sep 8th 2016 at 4:55:19 AM

That only matters if you're trying to make the line more complicated to make the movie fit somewhere it very openly does not try to fit.

The fact that Cooler doesn't know what happened on Namek doesn't mean it starts making sense for him to throw out claims like Goku could beat Freeza if it requires a specific set of circumstances to achieve. Saying he must have assumed Freeza would use a weaker form or that he undersold Freeza because he hates him are massively overthinking it, and also make his statement meaningless.

There is a very simple narrative reason he said that line. To establish Goku as stronger than Freeza, so that his own transformation can prove how much better it is by beating up a guy who can beat up Freeza.

To try and make things fit the manga, you're reducing Cooler's statement to something that has no meaning in-universe and out of universe.

As for Freeza getting killed because he'd stay in a suppressed form, that's incredibly unlikely. It goes completely against how he actually acts in the story:

  • When facing down Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta, he was the strongest there but transformed anyway
  • When fighting Piccolo, he was able to raise his battle power higher than Piccolo's, then transformed anyway (Piccolo may have surpassed him by taking off the weights - we don't know, because Freeza didn't even chance it)
  • In his third form, he transformed despite the only near challenge to him being an attack from Gohan that he reflected
  • He powered up to 50% against Goku despite that being massive overkill against him

Freeza was always really quick to transform or pull more power out of his ass, saying it's likely he'd get killed in a lower form is misunderstanding his character if not inventing things whole cloth.

edit: It's like trying to explain how base Gohan can fight Super Saiyan Broly, or why the base Saiyans fight the Androids for so long in Super Android 13. Toei's writers write differently from Toriyama.

edited 8th Sep '16 4:56:34 AM by Saiga

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20143: Sep 8th 2016 at 5:25:17 AM

[up] Considering the massive post you just made I'm pretty sure your the one over complicating the entire thing.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20144: Sep 8th 2016 at 6:51:35 AM

Being thorough isn't the same thing as over thinking things.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20145: Sep 8th 2016 at 8:56:35 AM

It went very far past covering bases and far into over thinking. This started out as simply tossing ideas in regards to cooler compared to frezia.

No one claimed their thoughts were canon. It was simply an idea of hey maybe cooler thinks frezia died before going 100 percent.

Cooler movies obviously don't fit in the narrative of the manga or anime that is very clear to almost every one here. Does not change that fact that people like to talk about where it could fit with the least amount of inconvenience to the plot .

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#20146: Sep 8th 2016 at 8:59:10 AM

All he did was explain why all the points people were making didn't really make sense.

But, really, it's just a non-canon movie, who really cares?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#20147: Sep 8th 2016 at 9:02:09 AM

Saiga I love you, but sometimes you're kind of a buzzkill. sad

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20148: Sep 8th 2016 at 9:02:49 AM

[up] Kinda my point does it matter if the theories for a non canon are not 100 percent right when movie itself does not fit the points to begin with.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#20149: Sep 8th 2016 at 9:18:47 AM

When you yourself are taking them this seriously, yes it does.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#20150: Sep 8th 2016 at 9:42:41 AM

What gives off that idea?

There is caps lock or language to suggest that I am being overly serious. You can't exactly read tone from typed words.

My point simply was cooler has no idea of exact details of what happened on namek and cab draw his own conclusions of what did or did not happen.

Nothing more nothing less.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy

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