Wait, your (and presumably Toei's) logic contradicts itself: if Goku's base was stronger than Freeza's Power Level of 120,000,000, than Goku using Kaio-Kenx20 should've been at 2,400,000,000 at minimum, which is far beyond Cooler's Power Level of 470,000,000. Something you said was wrong, either from your perspective, or from Toei's.
edited 3rd Sep '16 10:04:21 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
Well, I did say a bit of adjustment was needed.
Obviously, they'd need to do a better job of explaining how Cooler can be stronger then his brother (who was supposed to be the strongest in the universe), but still weaker then Super Saiyan.
Now, as I see, Toei accidentally hit upon the same idea that Toriyama would use many years later and the fifth form is what Cooler achieved when he trained his power.
It's stronger than Frieza's 100% power 4th form, and more stable, but still weaker than 150,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku (just to make up a number, lets say fifth form Cooler is 135,000,000).
Frieza is still considered the strongest because he hadn't tapped his full potential. Cooler had reached his limit, and couldn't grow stronger, but Frieza, as his Golden Form showed, had the potential to surpass gods.
This is entirely my idea, and I have no illusions about it making sense.
So feel free to object and I won't take it personally.
Except for Saiga. Him, I will curse to the end of time.
One Strip! One Strip!These are the people who added extra filler to establish that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was no match for Evil Boo, Pure Boo was stronger than Evil Boo, and had Goku conclude he could probably match Pure Boo with Super Saiyan 2.
It's really less of an assumption and more of an observation.
Besides, I've known plenty of fans who doesn't understand what the Kaio-ken multiplier means. A common misunderstanding is that multiplying the level of Kaio-ken multipliers the boost it is given the user.
This goes hand in hand with the assumption that Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 are separate. So Kaio-ken adds to Goku's power, and Kaio-ken x 20 adds twenty times as much to his power. It's wrong but that doesn't stop it being a prevalent interpretation.
It's not a hard idea for two separate writers to hit upon. "Let's completely forget how Freeza's transformations work!"
edited 3rd Sep '16 10:13:16 PM by Saiga
Yeah. Even I forget that Frieza isn't transforming, but undoing transformations.
However, I recall him saying he chose the golden form upon achieving it. So if Cooler was canon, who's to say he didn't do the same for his supposed fifth form. All it takes is a little rewording to reveal that it's the form he takes when he unleashes his fully mastered 100% power, something his little shit of a brother could never do because he was too lazy to bother training.
One Strip! One Strip!Admit it you stole that from the time I mentioned that as an explanation Cooler could have used. Which, fair enough, I think you mentioned you were going to steal it back then.
The issue comes from implications that these forms are inherent, and a lack of explanation over how they concsiously create forms that make them more powerful.
It probably isn't about making a form that can use the power they trained for, because Golden Freeza sucks at using that power efficiently.
Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God Super Mutant God —blue.
It's possible Frieza focused more on increasing his power then actually mastering it. He's pretty short sighted.
One Strip! One Strip!An issue still arises from the combination of
- Frieza makes forms rather than achieving or unlocking inherent forms.
- Frieza can have forms that are more powerful than his base.
It creates a sort of infinity paradox. If Frieza can create a form that is 100x his natural power, then what stops him from making one that is 300x? 500x? 12,000x?
Once you open that can of worms, Frieza should never lose. Because his battle power is literally infinity.
Saiyans have to unlock Super Saiyan states that are limited by what "Super Saiyan" means in their genetics. The Kaioken becomes increasingly more and more devastating to your body as the multiplier rises. These act as limiters on the character's ability to just whip out a new multiplier every time they hit a hurdle.
Frieza has nothing of the sort because the concept of his transformations were never introduced with increasing his power in mind.
edited 4th Sep '16 9:32:00 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.A few things; one, I'm of the opinion that without his Super Transformation, Cooler was weaker than Frieza was back on Namek; two, seeing as how this would have most likely have to take place during the three years before the Androids arrived, Goku would have most likely have been stronger, and considering how going from a PL of 3 to 5 million would boost SS Goku from 150 to 250 million, Goku doesn't really need to become that much stronger to beat Goku if the first point holds true; three, I've only seen what Saiga said about the Kaio-ken multiplying the initial boost all of once in everything I've seen, with the rest being either Kaio-ken and Kaio-ken x2 being the same thing or Kaio-ken just being that 1.5x thing; granted, I've also seen dumb shit like saying that Super Saiyan God Goku is only high transonic in combat speed alone based solely on visible feats, so there's idiots all over the damn place.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Dragonball feats not looking impressive is not exactly an unreasonable observation, they plateaued super hard to the point where if you told me Super Saiyan Blue Goku vs Golden Freiza were at the exact same power level as Super Saiyan Classic Goku vs Final Form Frieza on Namek I would believe you. It's certainly not worth calling people idiots over.
Anyway, if we go by the idea that Super Cooler is a kind of Golden Frieza thing, that could work into Cooler's personality. He trained super hard to reach his level of power and finally managed to surpass his brother, but that brother who never worked a day in his life for his incredible power is still daddy's favorite. Abridged Cooler's got complexes for days.
If we go by what Toei intended, Cooler is stronger than Frieza.
If we were actually to try to fit him into the setting and make him consistent based on what's shown onscreen, Cooler would be weaker than Frieza for two reasons. One is, as noted, the fact that Cooler's "Final Form" couldn't even handle Goku in base, prompting him to unveil his new transformation and get effortlessly creamed by Goku as a Super Saiyan.
Since this Goku is fresh off Namek and hasn't even mastered his transformation yet, we're looking at Cooler's natural state being weaker than 3 million, versus Frieza's 120 million. He's so much weaker than Frieza it's embarrassing.
The other is that we're repeatedly told that Frieza is the Strongest in the Universe until Goku becomes a Super Saiyan. Toei's entire basis for Cooler being more powerful is that he's Frieza's older brother so, naturally, he'd be tougher than Frieza. But even Frieza's father is overshadowed by Frieza's might, so "older relative" doesn't really account for much.
As Saiga noted, Toei clearly intended Cooler to be stronger. However, Toei's approach to continuity is to basically shove their hands over their ears and scream, "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LA LA LA, Rule of Cool!!!" As a result, there's nothing to really suggest Cooler is Frieza's superior, and plenty to suggest otherwise.
edited 5th Sep '16 7:07:10 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Wait, what? Cooler just decided to transform.
That doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't handle Goku. That could just mean he's smarter than Freeza and decided to uneven the playing field right away instead of giving Goku the time to weaken him. Note Cooler immediately retaliated after Goku's initial smackdown.
Fair chance Toei didn't take that title as seriously as fans do
Case in point. The series never references Cooler so there's no real reason for them to adhere to the idea that Freeza is strongest. Regardless, Freeza being the strongest might only be so because Cooler hadn't achieved or hadn't revealed his Super form - he says that Goku is the first to see his new form.
When'd he say that? Before he transformed, Cooler nonchalantly claims he would have killed Freeza himself sooner or later.
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!It'd make sense to train to be stronger...but that's only if Freezer is the only one who doesn't train for his strength.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

In Movie 5, right before Cooler transforms he mentions that he can see how Goku would beat Freeza. Toei doesn't portray Super Saiyan as being 50x stronger than the Saiyan's base form, and they often give the base Saiyans ridiculous feats.
Movie 5 base Goku is stronger than Freeza, which is why he can force Cooler to transform. Cooler's fifth form is strong enough to beat up Kaio-ken x20 Goku, and lose to Super Saiyan Goku who is probably a lot stronger than he was on Namek.
Especially given that Budokai 3 gave Cooler a battle power of 470,000,000 (Goku was 150,000,000 on Namek and Freeza 120,000,000).
It doesn't fit with the main timeline, but once again the movies don't do that. As far as its own, separate logic goes, it kind of fits.
So yeah Cooler definitely stronger than Freeza, at least by using his fifth form. It's just that he looks weaker due to Toei copying the fight structure from Goku vs Freeza. Then they changed the part from "Freeza tries to blow up the planet and when it doesn't immediately succeed, goes 100% and continues the battle" to "Cooler tries to blow up the planet and Goku wipes him out with a Kamehameha".
Fifth Form Cooler's performance is based on 70% Freeza's performance. That's why he looks so shit, because they're fighting the same enemy, and there is only one line to say that Goku is actually much stronger than when he did the same thing to Freeza.