As Todd in the Shadows explained it: it's not that they suck, it's that they're so very dedicated to sucking. They never change their style up, they just focus on low effort bullshit, and that's what pisses people off. Like, some bands don't really change their style up (AC/DC, for example), but they at least try their best to be good.
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?I never got the sense that they don't try.
Making music and touring is never a walk in the park. I find that most people to claim X artist isn't trying is just making shit up to justify their bashing.
I don't listen to Nickelback, but a few songs of theirs I've heard sound good. What I have become (I think), Hero, Animals I like.
The first could be due to nostalgia, though. Takes me right back.
Anyway Tobias you are factually wrong because you claim shit like "Goku didn't try his best" even though it is made perfectly clear he did. Goku is smart enough to know when he can't accomplish anything in a fight. Are you going to begrudge Piccolo for not fighting in Gohan's place? Kuririn? Yamcha? Like Goku, they won't just rush to pointless deaths.
As for Gohan being stronger than Goku hurting the narrative: no, it only hurts your argument and your twisted framing of the narrative. It undermines your attempts to demonize Goku and paint him as careless and "eager to see his son killed". Your entire point is filled with hyperbole and downright dishonesty.
Goku being aware of Gohan's strength is what makes the entire sequence make sense. If anything, Super Saiyan 2 is what hurts the narrative, which was only necessitated by dragging things out by making Gohan extra reluctant to fight.
edited 1st Sep '16 2:48:10 PM by Saiga
Nickleback memetically sucks because they're So Okay, It's Average. I honestly don't mind some Nickleback songs in small doses, and I like Chad Kroeger's voice on the Santana song Into the Night.
Country music memetically sucks because it's basically just R&B or rap, slowed down and stripped of much effort, creativity or variation, intentionally for a specific type of white American who aren't much liked by most of the rest of the world, who also don't like most of the rest of the world.
edited 1st Sep '16 2:49:34 PM by wanderlustwarrior
If Goku's Instant Kamehame that vaporized half of Cell's body isn't him trying his best, I don't know what is. That's literally the only trick Goku had that Cell wouldn't know and would actually give him time for.
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A lot of it is also the horrible lyrics and the horrible singing. I mean, I've heard worse singers than Chad Kroeger in 70's punk bands, but they at least didn't have horrible lyrics or music.
You've pretty much exemplified why I hate modern country, though.
edited 1st Sep '16 3:23:46 PM by AdricDePsycho
Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?As for Gohan being stronger than Goku hurting the narrative: no, it only hurts your argument and your twisted framing of the narrative. It undermines your attempts to demonize Goku and paint him as careless and "eager to see his son killed". Your entire point is filled with hyperbole and downright dishonesty.
Goku being aware of Gohan's strength is what makes the entire sequence make sense. If anything, Super Saiyan 2 is what hurts the narrative, which was only necessitated by dragging things out by making Gohan extra reluctant to fight.
Does nothing to hurt my argument because my argument is that it's a bad plot point that never should have happened, and all the ridiculous justifications that warped the narrative into "Goku weaponizing his child was a heroic deed that had to happen in order to make the universe safe!" just highlight how poorly this plot point was assembled.
That you think I'm begrudging Piccolo, Krillin, or Yamcha for not fighting in Gohan's place only goes to prove once again that nobody's been paying attention to or has any idea what my point is so here, I'll clarify it again. You guys keep "refuting" me by arguing against things that have nothing to do with what I'm saying.
Having the story written in such a way that Goku deliberately, knowingly, on purpose sends a small child into a battle to the death was a terrible writing decision rife with Unfortunate Implications. No matter how many ways you say, "Well, it was a good call because Gohan was stronger than Goku!" it doesn't change the fact that it never should have happened and was an easily avoidable narrative pitfall.
It didn't have to happen, it shouldn't have happened, and the story could still have played out just the way it did without it ever happening. But it did happen and that's why TFS is giving the original work no end of shit for it. As they should, because it's the worst moment in the worst arc of the entire series.
I don't care how many times you keep bringing up the Watsonian justifications for why it happened because my criticism is on a Doylist level. Toriyama should have written it better, and nothing that Goku, Piccolo, Krillin, or Cell did can change the fact that Toriyama dropped the ball really hard.
edited 1st Sep '16 3:36:30 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I assume the idea of him not giving his all originates from the fact he gave up instead of still fighting like he did against Frieza. That's my best guess at least.
Still the fact that he never included Gohan in on the plan or made sure Gohan would be mentally prepared instead of blindsiding him with the responsibility. Also giving cell the bean. The monster that intends to blow up the earth does not deserve a fair fight. The cell games is supposed to be an endurance battle.
Cell seemed to have expected that he was not even fighting Goku so early really so I would imagine he expected a series of fights one after the other in increasing difficulty. In a sense it is a boss rush.
You I have wondered why once Gohan beat cell enough to where he was Semi Perfect no one else jumped in to finish Cell off when Gohan decided to give Cell a sadistic beating instead of killing him.
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I think the issue is that you're approaching things from the point of view that Goku always intended for Gohan to fight Cell, that he didn't do everything to make sure that didn't happen, and that Gohan was ever in any real danger, none of which were true from the onset of situation. I think the point is, we understand your Doylist standpoint, it just doesn't hold water.
Explaining things to Gohan would clear up the conflict, but the conflict also partially stemmed from Gohan's sudden pacifism. But then again, that too, probably would have gone away if he had just talked to Gohan. They were working on two different basses: Goku knew that the power Gohan already had was more than enough while Gohan thought Goku was talking about his hidden power.
edited 1st Sep '16 3:49:36 PM by LSBK
Tobias, primarily your problem is thus: Goku sent Gohan to fight Cell and that the narrative was arranged such that such a decision was necessary and you find Unfortunate Implications in that that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Right?
edited 1st Sep '16 3:51:04 PM by God_of_Awesome
@Very Melon: Because that a scenario makes fine Watsonian sense is usually enough for people and what many will focus solely on.
You don't need to explain this to me. Everyone that watches fictional media has an issue with something or other from a Doylist view, I'm only amazed this particular thing evolved into telling a guy to change his harmless opinion.
edited 1st Sep '16 4:12:15 PM by VeryMelon
Right?
Yeah. And I just realized that I'm actually getting really angry over this discussion which is always a bad way to be on Tv Tropes. I mean, not just the discussion, I've had a shit day, but the point is that I'm turning into an asshole and that's not acceptable. I'm getting really close to the "Don't be a dick" line. If I haven't already crossed it. Sorry if I have.
So, uh, I think I'm going to drop this now and go do something else to cool off. I'll be back later and won't pick this back up again. Sorry again.
edited 1st Sep '16 4:17:33 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Back to the country music is awful debate: There are some places where country music is very popular, including my neck of the woods. I personally think country music is alright besides those songs about parties and getting drunk all night with hot chicks. That shit is very unrealistic.
The legend has returned.

It's the only Nickelback song I can remember besides "Hero", and until I looked it up I didn't know they were behind it.
I like "Hero" as well, by the way.
edited 1st Sep '16 2:23:01 PM by VeryMelon