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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19901: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:18:23 AM

A lot of the disagreement seems to be because we disagree on what, if anything was being romanticized. You seem to take Gohan winning as proof of Goku being completely in the right when...that just seems like terrible reaching to me considering everything that happened.

But, maybe we should put this discussion away until it's inevitably brought back up again, in two to four episodes.

edited 30th Aug '16 11:22:59 AM by LSBK

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
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#19902: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:21:39 AM

No, Gohan fights those battles because sometimes there's no one to fight them for him. That's something TFS understands and i came up when Gohan first turned super sayian.

Also when it comes to fucking Gohan up, it's obvious who they think is responsible. Gohan longs for his father attention and wants to live up to his expectations, but he just hates his mother and uses any occasion to get as far away from her as possible.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19903: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:24:28 AM

In the abridged verse, they both fucked him up pretty bad. In the show/manga....I'm actually a lot more lenient toward both of them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#19904: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:39:47 AM

....

Well, I'm glad I missed this conversation.

Interesting points all around though.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19905: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:51:02 AM

No, Gohan fights those battles because sometimes there's no one to fight them for him. That's something TFS understands and i came up when Gohan first turned super sayian.

Also when it comes to fucking Gohan up, it's obvious who they think is responsible. Gohan longs for his father attention and wants to live up to his expectations, but he just hates his mother and uses any occasion to get as far away from her as possible.

Abridged Gohan voices a lot more resentment about his father than his mother, and other characters tend to comment on how f*cked up he is. Even Goku's noticed. Just off the top of my head:

Episode 23

  • Gohan: Abandon me for a year with Piccolo, send me off into space, and the next time I see you, you've lost your damn body?! YOU'RE NOT EVEN YOU ANYMORE!!!
  • Goku as Ginyu: I don't know where he gets that from.

Episode 26

  • Gohan: You know, it's not so bad. I mean sure, I've seen more people die than most people my age. Or most people in general. Then again, I don't really know anyone my own age. My only friends are a 26-year-old dwarf and a giant green alien who constantly hits me. Still, they're better than my dad. At least they're around! Huh. I wonder where that came from.

Episode 28

  • Gohan: Dad, beat him within an inch of his life and then HANG HIM UP BY HIS ENTRAILS!!!
  • Goku: Wow. He sounds like he's been having a hard time. Piccolo should really have a talk with him.

Episode 49

  • Goku: Also, we're gonna FIGHT! A LOT!
  • Gohan: (sigh) I need an adult.
  • Goku: I am an adu—
  • Gohan: No! No, you are not.

Even in Gohan's nightmare in the latest episode, Chi-Chi was depicted as a one-dimensional force of overbearing smothering getting on Gohan's case over not studying hard enough, while Goku was a force of destruction who ruined Gohan's life and killed everyone he loved.

edited 30th Aug '16 11:53:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19906: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:52:35 AM

The first two examples aren't even Goku's fault, though.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19907: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:54:53 AM

Debatable but the point is that TFS clearly blames Goku for Gohan's shitty upbringing and that comes out through Gohan's resentment towards his father. It's never been Chi-Chi that they depicted as the reason Gohan has so much pent-up rage.

The third one was just Gohan being such a screwed-up ball of anger from the way his life has been thus far that even Goku couldn't help but notice.

edited 30th Aug '16 11:55:52 AM by TobiasDrake

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#19908: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:55:11 AM

[nja]Yeah, but that doesn't matter, Tobias is pointing out that TFS is showing Gohan blame Goku for his fucked up childhood more than he is Chi-Chi.[nja]

edited 30th Aug '16 11:55:29 AM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19909: Aug 30th 2016 at 11:58:33 AM

Yeah, and that's the reason some people have a problem with the "Goku is a shitty dad jokes" because some of the ways they convey it don't make sense.

And it's not really debatable. Goku didn't abandon him, he died trying to save him and had no control over Piccolo's actions. That's only Goku's fault as much as you want to call Raditz showing up his "fault" which is just a dick move.

And he didn't force him to go to space, it was Gohan's own idea, with the assumption that Goku would likely be following behind.

Like, if the point is that a child wouldn't think of these things rationally and by all rights should have some issues, good work, but if the point is specifically to pin the blame on Goku, it does a shitty job of it.

And he still has very clear issues with Chi-Chi as well.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:04:18 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#19910: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:00:28 PM

Tobias` entire argument kinda falls apart because he's applying everything happening in Dragon Ball to real world standards, instead of treating it like the separate fiction that it is :V

Yea, its a terrible thing that kids are forced to fight, but in this series, not letting them fight is an even worse decision. Yea, Goku would be a "better" father if he adhered to our standards of morality and didn't let Gohan anywhere near the batltefield, but then he'd get bodied by Cell and nobody would be left to challenge him and he'd kill everyone.

Yea, its "romanticizing" but its portrayed in such an abstract concept far beyond anything that is applicable to real life that I don't even understand why people are trying to read some deeper meaning into it.

Our children don't pop out of the womb stronger than 95% of the rest of the planet, nor do I think we are in any danger of bio-androids going around eating people alive.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:01:54 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19911: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:00:35 PM

The "Goku is a shitty dad" joke works for me when it's applied to things Goku had control over.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:04:35 PM by VeryMelon

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19912: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:03:04 PM

Like, when they inevitably use it because of Goku's terrible decision to just drop things on Gohan with Cell, then it will be appropriate, if probably not treated like a joke.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#19914: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:07:19 PM

Agreed. I don't like Goku being blamed for things that he couldn't help.

He would have been wished back right away if not for Nappa and Vegeta showing up in a year.

Piccolo took Gohan while he was gone.

He couldn't go to Namek as he was because his body was utterly destroyed, and Gohan volunteered to go himself (in this version, he swore at Chi-chi before going too).

I mean, the biggest thing he's done in terms of shitty parenting is something that hasn't happened yet (making him fight Cell).

In fact, I've always had the idea that while Gohan does clearly have some anger towards his dad, there's also supposed to be a bit of an implication that it's a little misguided. Goku is kinda dumb, but he's shown himself to legitimately love Gohan (implying he went Super Saiyan because Frieza threatened him, stopping him from going to fight Imperfect Cell by intelligently reasoning with him; etc), and Gohan's a little too messed up to see that right now.

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windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#19915: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:09:49 PM

Why is Chi Chi wanting her son to have an education to fall back on a bad thing?

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#19916: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:09:50 PM

I guess one thing to consider from the perspective of GOHAN in these moments of rage towards his father is...well...he's still very young.

He doesn't have the necessary maturity to understand why some things happened the way they did. So to him it's like he was straight up abandoned.

Gohan is smart, but he's not "smart" if that makes sense.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:10:10 PM by TheMageofFire

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#19917: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:12:53 PM

Goku did actually have a bit of agency over the year he spent on Kaio-sama's planet. But Gohan probably didn't see that part.

If he hadn't released Raditz's tail, he wouldn't have had to die protecting Gohan. Piccolo also probably wouldn't have gloated to Raditz about how Goku's going to get resurrected either, which means Nappa and Vegeta would have written off Raditz's death as him being a stupid weakling and never came to Earth searching for Dragon Balls.

Frieza never would have found out about the Dragon Balls and would just keep doing what he's doing. Had Goku never let go of that tail, everyone would live happily ever after and the Earth would be at peace.

Until everyone's killed by Androids. tongue

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#19918: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:13:03 PM

[up][up]He's intelligent but inexperienced.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:13:20 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#19919: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:13:18 PM

[up][up][up][up]It's not. The unfortunate joke is that she takes it to a ridiculous extreme.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:13:54 PM by LSBK

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#19920: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:13:38 PM

I mean, I can't blame him for letting go of Raditz's tail in the original.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19921: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:15:09 PM

I can. This is literally the first time in his life Goku has ever shown mercy to a still-dangerous adversary for no personal gain and without any reason to believe their conflict is a misunderstanding. He wanted Piccolo spared the second time because he didn't want the Dragon Balls and God to fade out of existence, but for Raditz, Goku spontaneously developed a newfound sense of mercy.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:15:51 PM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#19922: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:15:33 PM

That's also something people seem to ignore; Gohan is still a child, a pre-teen at that. OF COURSE he has a one-sided and biased view on how his parents raise him. Honestly, he'll probably come to terms with both Goku and Chi-Chi once he's 16 (or 18?) and realize that his parents are people and they aren't perfect.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:16:30 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#19923: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:16:18 PM

Like, if the point is that a child wouldn't think of these things rationally and by all rights should have some issues, good work, but if the point is specifically to pin the blame on Goku, it does a shitty job of it.

If Goku just lets these things happen, and worse encourages them, then yeah he kind of is to blame.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19924: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:16:46 PM

[up][up][up][up]Same here.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:16:54 PM by VeryMelon

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19925: Aug 30th 2016 at 12:17:49 PM

I figure he's probably going to come to terms with Goku in the final Beam Struggle.

In the original, Goku spends that time coaching Gohan from the afterlife, building up his confidence and encouraging him to beat Cell. Here, I'm expecting Goku to realize how much he hasn't always been there for Gohan and to make peace with him, and for Gohan to gain the confidence to beat Cell from finally putting to bed his resentment for his father and learning to believe in himself.

The whole "Gohan's shitty family" subplot seems to be building to that point. TFS have spent years calling out Gohan's terrible childhood and setting up how much his dad has let him down, used him in questionable ways, and fundamentally misunderstood who he is. I'm expecting an emotional climax to be the payoff.

But in a "Goku makes peace and realizes where he went wrong, while Gohan accepts it might not always have been his fault" way rather than "Gohan hates his dad SO MUCH" way.

edited 30th Aug '16 12:20:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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