That depends on how much you're willing to resent the author for writing a narrative that constantly justifies parental neglect and deliberately turning Gohan into a Child Soldier.
Most Child Soldier narratives don't expect you to sympathize with people who deliberately, consciously put children in harm's way. When Children pick up weapons and step up to fight, that choice is usually written so as to be on them. Even when there is an adult involved, characters like Dumbledore or Elfangor meet heavy scrutiny - including by themselves - for the decision to weaponize kids.
Because even when it's necessary, everyone knows that Child Soldiers are an abhorrent concept, and having to turn to such an extreme measure is a decision that should, by all rights, be met with extreme reluctance, heavy scrutiny, and great remorse by the adults involved.
What Goku and Piccolo have done to Gohan is actually a war crime.
And that's why people agree with Chi-Chi. Because it's awful that Goku is so blissfully unaware of how terrible he's been as a father, and it's awful that Toriyama has written the conflict in such a way that the world will literally end if our hero stops being shitty for five minutes. Dragon Ball romanticized parental neglect and militarization of children and the only person who seems even slightly bothered by this is Chi-Chi.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:21:21 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Piccolo's the one who got him to fight in the first place and I don't think we're supposed to look on that kindly. The entire "live for half a year own your own and then if you survive I'll beat the shit out of you to make you strong" was him being a dick.
And by the time Goku actually started training him leaving Gohan out would legitimately be a stupid move. And you are giving Chi Chi way too much credit, for once I actually agree that Team Four Star made a character deeper with her little speech.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:24:55 AM by LSBK
We weren't supposed to look kindly on it when the plan was, "Beat Gohan into shape and then send him out and have him waste those Saiyans!"
But now that it's Goku, we are supposed to look kindly on, "Beat Gohan into shape and then send him out to waste that Cell!"
It's the same awful plan that Piccolo was trying to do in the Saiyan Saga. Piccolo even gets to be the one to call him out for how shitty this is during the Cell Games, because he's learned from his own turn at being The Asshole. The only difference is that the narrative is on Goku's side because he's the main character and Piccolo wasn't.
The universe constantly conspires to vindicate Goku's terrible parenting. To show it in a positive light. To drive in the message that everyone would be dead right now if Goku was a halfway-competent father. That we should all be GRATEFUL, including Gohan, that Goku has more important shit to be doing with his life than being with his family.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:29:16 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The only thing shitty about Goku's plan is that for some reason he didn't explain it to Gohan. Gohan was already one of the most powerful people in the world and when the training was done, he was legitimately the most powerful person in the world. Insist on treating him like a normal, powerless child is ridiculous.
Piccolo was just hoping against all odds Gohan might be of use, Goku knew that if Gohan really tried he could defeat Cell and he went up against him first just to confirm one last time what he had figured out since getting out of the chamber.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:32:41 AM by LSBK
That's because you're clearly not supposed to take canon!Chi-chi seriously, she's a gag, nothing more. TFS just decided to stop being subtle on why a parent would have an issue with their child constantly being put in life or death situations, justified or not.
It doesn't matter how strong he is, he's still a child, not even a teenager. Parental instincts are always going to trump logical and rational thinking.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:32:30 AM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Everyone already knows why a normal parent would have issues. That's not some great mystery being revealed to any of us, and it's annoying when people act like they're implanting some sage wisdom.
That doesn't change the actual situation was, in fact, only Gohan could beat Cell.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:35:46 AM by LSBK
Then its like Tobias said, it depends entirely on who's side you're on; you either agree that treating Gohan as a guided missile to beat Cell is the correct thing Goku did and the likes of Piccolo and Chi-Chi don't really have a leg to stand out with their insistence that Gohan shouldn't fight at all. Or you're on their side and think its terrible that they have to entertain the notion at all.
Doesn't seem like there's a middle ground here.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Which is exactly what I mean when I say the narrative romanticizes parental neglect and Child Soldiers. Because it was written in just such a way that the world would literally end if Gohan had a better father.
Even then, if Goku was acting like this was a last resort that he deeply regretted having to resort to, if Goku was kicking himself for not being strong enough to handle it himself, if we had some indication that Goku is anything but super-excited to send Gohan out there, have him slaughter his enemies, and then break for ice cream, it would be easier to get behind.
But Chi-Chi would still have a point. Because it's abhorrent that Goku is so willing to turn his child into a weapon, and it's abhorrent that Toriyama is so willing to contort the narrative in such a way as to make Goku's militarization of his son into a heroic and noble deed, rather than the abysmal war crime that it is.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.To be fair, Gohan wanted to train at this point and there's no reason why Goku wouldn't train his son. That's like asking a star baseball player to not practice baseball with son who wants to play baseball. He was even disappointed that he didn't get to fight during the mess with Androids 19 and 20. Goku didn't decide to use Gohan as a weapon until they were in the HTC and Goku realized that Gohan was far stronger than him.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!Would Values Dissonance have a place here because are we judging this by our own country's standards on treating children?
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Nothing wrong with training Gohan. Everything wrong with sending him into brutal deathmatches against murderbots.
Which is pretty much exactly what Chi-Chi was getting at when she said, "I said Goku could TRAIN Gohan, I never said he could fight Cell."
While many first-world countries disagree on the appropriate age at which people can be sent into combat, most if not all agree that 4 and 11 are unacceptable. 11-year-olds do get sent into combat, but that's generally done in third-world countries and it is VERY illegal in the international court. 15 is the minimum acceptable age according to the ICC.
That was Not Hyperbole when I said that turning Gohan into a guided missile to launch into Cell's face is a war crime.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:47:30 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Not to mention, plenty of forces that employ Child Soldiers also have a "do or die" mentality. While the scale is different, the idea that "if we don't fight, then we will be killed" is not unique to this example. And we'd still frown upon those who employ Child Soldiers.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.Allowing Gohan to train with Goku for this comes with the implicit assumption that he might have to fight Cell.
I'd also like to point out that seeing as Goku actually did have to save the world as a kid he might very well be inclined to see the issue differently, especially when he knows of his son's awesome potential.
And I'd also like to say that Goku being Gohan's father really mean jack here. If Gohan is the only one who can beat Cell, there really is nothing more to say unless you want parental duty to trump the fate of the world, which ends with Gohan dead anyway. Goku specifically fought Cell first just to see if it would even come up. Piccolo was wrong the reason Gohan didn't want to fight, it was basically the exact opposite of what Piccolo thought.
And really, the whole line of child soldier discussion is ridiculous here. You might as well say children ever in super hero or fighting manga/comics, even if they're primarily directed a children.
edited 30th Aug '16 7:56:58 AM by LSBK
No, it comes with the assumption that Goku is going to be spending time with his son while engaging in his hobby rather than choosing between one or the other, and Gohan will help Goku get stronger so that Goku can defeat Cell.
That's what literally everyone thought Goku was doing before Goku busted out with, "Gohan, go wreck Cell's shit!" at the tournament. Including Gohan.
From the RRA, yes. When Gohan fights Cell, he'll be the same age that Goku was when he dismantled Red Ribbon.
But the fact that Goku is either too stupid or too blinded by personal experience to understand how terrible his choices are, does not discredit Chi-Chi's criticism of those terrible choices.
Because the narrative romanticizes Goku's abuses.
Many are. Have you noticed that kid sidekicks are becoming less and less common? That's because audiences have become more aware of how awful that concept is. Characters like Batman have received endless criticism for use of Child Soldiers. Bucky and Robin get conspicuously aged up in film adaptations, and the comics retconned Bucky's history when Marvel realized that having the U.S. send children into WWII was maybe not kosher.
Most Kid Heroes tend to be self-driven rather than being crafted by adults. When they are, the adults turning them into weapons are usually supposed to be controversial figures and heavily scrutinized if they aren't revealed to be out-and-out villains themselves. And most of those kids are older than 11 anyway.
Rarely does a story have a grown-ass man deliberately and knowingly work on turning a preteen into a ballistic missile to kill enemies with while the narrative goes, "Good job, adult who should know better. You keep doing that good thing!"
edited 30th Aug '16 8:04:43 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.We've had this discussion before and as I seem to be outgunned I'll say this, still treating this as a matter of parenting seems ridiculous. Like, I'm not even arguing that Goku is a great or even good father, but saying the story "romanticizes his abuse" just sounds ridiculous.
Even though Piccolo was was wrong about Gohan's problems Goku still had a "revelation" that he was actually right.
And maybe sidekicks are being phased out, but kids being the main focus of these incredibly dangerous situations is still incredibly common.
But this, is just wrong. They went into this thinking that they'd need all the help they could get. No one thought that when Gohan went it would just be "happyfuntimebonding". Why else would anyone else even bother training if they're all just going to put it on Goku? He was never supposed to be the only option here. People expecting results from Gohan, for better or worse, is not a new thing.
edited 30th Aug '16 8:15:59 AM by LSBK
I think I'll take the world being saved over it being destroyed for meaningless virtue signalling.
Also right. Just because the characters expected Goku to save the day doesn't mean they didn't expect Gohan to do nothing. He trained with Goku under the assumption that they may need his power.
edited 30th Aug '16 8:35:36 AM by hardcorefakes
I kinda assumed that Gohan was training with Goku for Goku's sake. He needed a training partner. Which is why Chichi said she agreed to let him train, not to fight.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Exactly.
Everyone's assuming that Goku is going to bust out of the RoSaT and kick Cell's ass in record time. Because he's Goku and that's what he does. When Goku goes, "Nope, I'm out, I can't beat him. But GOHAN can! Go get him, Gohan!" it's a shock to everyone.
Including Gohan, who was also operating under the impression that this was going to end with Goku wrecking Cell's face. Gohan has so little agency in Goku's decision to turn him into a cruise missile that he doesn't even find out that was the plan until literally the moment he's supposed to fight Cell.
edited 30th Aug '16 9:04:59 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.We can all agree that Goku not telling him was a dick move that makes no sense besides to suspenseful for the reader, but that doesn't mean people didn't expect Gohan to contribute at all.
Piccolo expected him to contribute against the Saiyans, Krillin was sure that he could make a difference on Namek with his potential unlocked and Vegeta came to the same conclusion, Goku and Piccolo thought he'd both be able to do things against the androids.
Regardless of how horrible it would be to put him into those positions people routinely expect things from him. That's not saying it's right, it's just how things are.
Piccolo was just as wrong then as Goku is now. The only difference is that the narrative condemned Piccolo for it then, but celebrates Goku now. Just like how Vegeta letting Cell achieve Perfection is condemned but Goku letting Frieza reach 100% is celebrated. As is often the case for protagonists, the universe contorts around itself to make Goku right even when he does things that are wrong for everyone else.
Krillin expected Namek to be a quick jaunt to another planet to grab the Dragon Balls; he had no idea that Frieza was a thing that was going to happen to everyone. And by that point, it was too late to go back because their ship got blown up immediately after landing.
You're not supposed to agree with Vegeta on anything ever.
edited 30th Aug '16 9:17:48 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

But without that finely tuned murder machine, the entire planet is going to be destroyed. That kinda makes a big difference.
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