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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18926: Mar 16th 2016 at 12:42:37 PM

I liked the Scouring of the Shire just because it let the hobbits show off how they've grown into combatants over the course of the war. It was a nice contrast between those four hobbits who rode off to be soldiers and the ones who lived fat, happy lives as citizens in the Shire.

After spending most of the story being hobbits among soldiers, the Scouring showcased their development by letting them be soldiers among hobbits.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18927: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:14:55 PM

Loved Coraline the movie. And Wybie (the guy) "saving the day" at the end was basically him coming to help tie up a loose end of an adventure she completed 95% of by herself (with some help from some neighbor ladies and a cat). He didn't even really save her; he helped her, then she helped him, and they ended things together.

edited 16th Mar '16 7:42:58 PM by LSBK

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#18928: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:21:27 PM

[up]

Don't tell that to Cracked.com. They put out an article where they more or less called that scene sexist.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#18930: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:23:43 PM

But that's the kind of thing that should never actually be revealed if true, because Toriyama might decide down the road that he does want to use Frieza's species for something. Actually establishing that they're extinct just to get people to stop asking about them would be an unnecessary limitation on future story potential.

Huh. When you put it that way (and when you consider that Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants so often he may as well get rid of the seat and wear ass-less chaps for the rest of his life) a lack of world building is a good idea.

Point made.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#18931: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:24:43 PM

I used to like Cracked a lot, but then they started getting over the top with the social justice articles, and now I can't stand them anymore.

Kind of a shame, because some of their articles were actually pretty good even during that point.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#18932: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:28:28 PM

For me, they permanently got knocked down a peg in their article about comedians being more ignorant then you'd expect, and then call Louis CK sexist for saying vaginas are pretty. Apparently he only has that opinion because he sees them as objects for his pleasure. It was amazing.

... uh, anyway. Yeah. World building. I love me some world building, but yeah, if you aren't planning, you may paint yourself into a corner. Which is bad.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18933: Mar 16th 2016 at 1:40:03 PM

Pretty much, yes. If you want to do world-building, plan your story ahead of time. Don't be Grace.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#18934: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:04:17 PM

Had Toriyama just said the Saiyans were near-extinction, there wouldn't have been an issue, but he went the extra mile and explained that a meteor killed their planet.

But in the manga it wasn't and issue because, even though it was a retcon, it was used as a way to flash out the characters of both Freeza and Vegeta.

Retcons are not aways bad. If you can integrate nicely into the story it can even improve it. Same goes for "world building for world building sake". Yes, it limits story potential, but it also solidify the vision of the audience on your world, which is more immersive. You need to be careful to not fall in contradiction or to not limit yourself too much (so it is better to either plan ahead or have a fully solidified internal vision of the world), but it can help the narrative.

PS:Personally, I find the main problem of empty world building is when it is uninteresting. If you break the story to build your world, you want to make sure the audience will want to hear that. Not that this is ever the case with Dragon Ball, the world building tend to be really short, as it is mostly used as plot devises, anyway.

edited 16th Mar '16 2:06:38 PM by Heatth

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18935: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:06:24 PM

Yes, it can. World-building has the potential to both benefit and harm the narrative, and it's all dependent on how much you plan in advance.

Toriyama doesn't, which makes world-building a very tricky and dangerous thing for him.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#18936: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:12:25 PM

[up]True, but I think he overall handled it relatively well. In the original manga there wasn't too many glaring contradictions. The only one I can remember was the mess with androids 19 and 20 (Trunks gave these numbers when he first appeared to warn Goku, which was obviously retconed).

Hell, he even avoided the common shonen trap of having the previously "strongest guy" to turn out to not be that strong in comparison to other ordinary future opponents. I mean, yeah, Freeza and the Sayans eventually became So Last Season. But to the very end Freeza was still the "strongest guy in the Galaxy" before Goku. There never appeared some other random guy who was stronger than him. The future villains were either sealed (Buu), in another dimension (Dabura) or non existent (Androids and Cell).

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18937: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:14:51 PM

True. Beerus even mentions him by name and expresses surprise that anyone could have surpassed him. He may be so weak on the godly scale that Kaioshin could have killed him in one punch, but Toriyama never forgot that he was the strongest mortal being in the universe before Goku came along.

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#18938: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:15:49 PM

Or Gods (Beerus, Whis, and Kaioshin), also in another dimension.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18939: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:17:41 PM

Toei, on the other hand, happily forgot that Frieza was the strongest mortal being in the universe and just kept adding random aliens who were more powerful than Frieza wherever they could. Characters like Broly or General Rilldo who just existed somewhere in the universe and were stronger than the strongest because f*ck you, they just are.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#18940: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:20:57 PM

[up][up]I was talking about the villains. And ignoring Beerus because he wasn't in the original manga. I honestly am not following Super close enough to know if Toriyama started slipping more on his continuity recently. But, for his original run, he did quite well, despite making shit up as he went. His world building not aways made sensenote , but it mostly internally consistent.

edited 16th Mar '16 2:22:18 PM by Heatth

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18941: Mar 16th 2016 at 2:21:47 PM

I think the most triumphant example of Toriyama not forgetting what Frieza is supposed to mean was during the early stages of the Buu arc. This would have been a perfect opportunity to have Babidi's henchmen be super-powerful and challenging to our post-Cell characters, but that wouldn't have made sense.

Instead, with the exception of Dabura (who's from another dimension), Babidi's fighters are a light-eating alien who Goku defeats pretty easily and another alien who considers being able to act normally in 10x gravity to be impressive. Even Babidi himself was helpless against Piccolo.

Because our heroes had already far surpassed the most powerful forces the universe had to offer, the brand new villains were already So Last Season when they were introduced, lulling both the audience and the protagonists into a false sense of security regarding Majin Buu.

edited 16th Mar '16 2:22:41 PM by TobiasDrake

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Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
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#18942: Mar 16th 2016 at 6:20:51 PM

If I am remembering correctly King Kai did not want Goku to fight frezzia so him saying it was a meteor makes sense. If he had told him Goku probably would have wanted to go fight him at some point in the future.

I can also imagine a vast empire hiding the truth about a planets destruction. That is generally how history works. Facts change with some information not matching up with previous facts.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18943: Mar 16th 2016 at 7:17:16 PM

History is written by the victors, after all.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18946: Mar 17th 2016 at 8:25:03 AM

If I am remembering correctly King Kai did not want Goku to fight frezzia so him saying it was a meteor makes sense. If he had told him Goku probably would have wanted to go fight him at some point in the future.

It's the best possible answer for why Toei's Kaio-sama would willfully lie, but it's still flawed. Mainly because Goku isn't a hero type who goes around righting injustices, and because Goku isn't particularly attached to Planet Vegeta; in fact, he was actively preparing to take down the last two remaining Saiyans outside of him at the time. So the idea that he would fly off to seek revenge for the terrible crimes committed against his race is heavily flawed.

In fact, when he actually does face Frieza, Goku even acknowledges that what happened to the Saiyans was karmic justice. While it is a bit of victim-blaming, the fact is that he's really not very sore about it. His feelings on the extinction of his species can be summarized in two words: "Good riddance."

edited 17th Mar '16 8:26:08 AM by TobiasDrake

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#18947: Mar 17th 2016 at 8:26:53 AM

Mind you, in the process Frieza did kill Goku's father. Sure, Goku never met him, but A Million Is a Statistic could still make that personal if he knew it. King Kai might think that Goku could theoretically be sore about it if he knew.

edited 17th Mar '16 8:27:31 AM by Larkmarn

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18948: Mar 17th 2016 at 8:27:42 AM

He did say he was fighting Frieza for all the Saiyans he killed before it started, though. I mean, that was just one of many reasons, but it was one of them.

edited 17th Mar '16 8:28:30 AM by LSBK

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#18949: Mar 17th 2016 at 10:20:27 AM

I was more meaning in the sense that Goku who loves a challenge would certainly want to go fight the guy that Is regarded as the strongest in the universe and blew up an entire planet.

Along with the fact that King Kai would probably not want to risk Goku potentially wanting to avenge his people. Much easier on his part to just claim some rocks killed them and make it look like it was karma then say alien overlord whipped them out to keep his iron grip on the universe.

edited 17th Mar '16 10:24:09 AM by Darthwyn

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#18950: Mar 17th 2016 at 4:39:08 PM

"There's this really strong guy whose minions are out and about terrorizing the universe, which eventually bled over to yourself and the people you care about" would probably have been enough to get Goku meddling in Freeza's affairs on his own eventually, even if only in a "I'll challenge myself to see if I can become as strong as this Freeza guy someday" way.

edited 17th Mar '16 4:40:50 PM by KnownUnknown


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