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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18176: Feb 12th 2016 at 10:11:00 AM

Saiyans were dicks before they got into the PTO. What with the hole "taking over the Tuffles' planet" thing and all.

According to Vegeta, the Tuffles had enslaved and oppressed the Saiyans and treated them as second-class citizens, barbarians and animals.

According to King Kai, the Tuffles had cities and technology and farms and food and water; while the Saiyans had rocks, and mountains, and deserts, and caves, and shit and piss.

What's in question is whether or not their culture is responsible for that, or if all Saiyans are inherently irredeemable murderers by nature of their birth. Goku, Tarble, and even Vegeta, an atrocious monster even by Saiyan standards, all stand as examples against the idea that Saiyan nature is to always be murderers, that Saiyans can never learn anything better and will always default to genocide.

I mean, Gine's conscience was such that she was apparently really bad at murder. So she had to work in a meatery instead after her first career plan didn't work out. So that's four.

And, I mean, Tarble was banished for being soft while the Saiyans were still in the PTO. So. That's a thing.

I felt like Raditz took Gohan out of spite, as a way of saying "there's nothing you can do about this Kakarot, I have your son and you're too weak to stop me."

Kakarot was sent to Earth to wipe it out and failed. Failed badly.

What Raditz wanted was for Goku to prove he wasn't a complete failure so he wouldn't be punished too severely.

He took Gohan as collateral. Or as a backup. An extra Saiyan.

Yeah, and we also can't fly, or shoot beams of plasma out of our hands, or blow up moons, or turn into giant monkeys, etc.

Saiyans can only do one of those things from birth.

Yeah, Vegeta didn't want to revive Raditz, and for a good reason - it would be a waste of a wish.

I mean, under that logic so is bringing back Krillin and Yamcha so many times.

And Vegeta did kill Nappa, but Nappa was crippled,

...You think it's okay to kill the disabled?

edited 12th Feb '16 10:28:56 AM by unnoun

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#18177: Feb 12th 2016 at 10:29:14 AM

Saiyan's do have a bit of a biological imperative for being war-like, at least, what with getting stronger after nearly getting killed and all.

It's a built-in carrot for some kinda violent behavior.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18178: Feb 12th 2016 at 10:32:34 AM

Seems more like survival thing than a "kill all the things" thing.

I mean. Yeah, killing everything that can kill you is technically a way to survive.

edited 12th Feb '16 10:32:55 AM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18179: Feb 12th 2016 at 10:37:36 AM

Yeah, that does seem like a defense mechanism. Their buff isn't, "Whenever you win a fight, you get orgasms!" or something. It's "If someone beats you half to death, you get stronger so that maybe that doesn't happen again."

That's not an inherently aggressive power. No one ever got a zenkai from winning a fight.

edited 12th Feb '16 10:39:24 AM by TobiasDrake

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18180: Feb 12th 2016 at 10:43:21 AM

I mean, mostly it makes it unlikely that Saiyans would ever lose the same fight twice.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#18181: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:28:25 AM

All 3(4?) examples of good Saiyans are the result of unusual circumstances.

Goku was a violent and aggressive person until he hit his head and got brain-damaged into a more polite, yet still violent, person.

Vegeta was undeniably a terrible person until after he had a child and had lived in a non-violent society for years, and even voluntarily went back to evil out of disgust at himself.

Tarble was born weak and gentle as his nature, something implied to be rare, and their culture banished him for it.

Gine was never implied to dislike fighting, just that she was bad at it. She was abnormally nice to other Saiyans and is treated as an aberration.

The Planet Trade Organization had absolutely no influence on the quality of Goku, Vegeta, Tarble, or Gine's character one way or another. The fact that sending Saiyan infants to weak planets and expecting all life aside from them to be dead, combined with Bardock telling Kakkarot and Raditz not to look at the moon, and that Vegeta and Raditz are shown having absolutely no problem wiping out all life on a populated planet at such a young age, and the HEAVY implication is that: Saiyans are violent by nature (confirmed) and, as infants, have a tendency to attack everything in the vicinity which, because of their massive comparative strength, makes them a huge threat to everything around them. Killing a Saiyan baby is absolutely justified because they are incredibly dangerous to everything around them and routinely wipe out all life on that planet.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:28:58 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#18182: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:37:49 AM

[up][up]It provides an incentive to get into fights in the first place.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18183: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:38:50 AM

You know, Pushover, I think the point you seem to be willfully ignoring is that, even if Saiyans are naturally aggressive, that doesn't mean you can't raise the whole "Kill everything" out of them, assuming it actually exists.

People can change, and babies especially are not set in their nature despite what you might think.

Really, I'm not sure why so one would cling to a "It's justified to murder this baby" argument as much as you are. I can't believe you actually thought this would go well.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18184: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:40:20 AM

Yeah, to restate something that Tobias said that a few people have ignored:

Putting Saiyan infants to death is only a justifiable act if those infants could not have been taught a different way of life. It only makes sense if all Saiyans are naturally incapable of being something other than what their culture would have them be. That seems patently untrue.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#18185: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:40:51 AM

Oh, you can raise the "kill everything" out of them. As long as they are an extremely rare genetic anomaly or get just the right kind of brain damage.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18186: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:42:43 AM

Seeing how we never actually got to see how that would go you're assuming as much as everyone else is. The difference everyone isn't working on such an absolute, black and white, "this will happen" scale that you are.

Edit: Goku getting hit on the head made things easier but we have no real reason to believe that given time he would haven't melody out on his own. You're just assuming he wouldn't.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:43:42 AM by LSBK

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18187: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:44:18 AM

Vegeta doesn't have brain damage.

Also, according to Gine it's dangerous to be an infiltrator baby.

I get the sense that not all infants the Saiyans send succeed. Some of them probably die.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:45:26 AM by unnoun

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#18188: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:45:38 AM

Vegeta also mellowed out after settling.

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18189: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:45:50 AM

And Vegeta is an adult.

It's harder for an adult to change their entire way of thinking than it is for a child.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18190: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:47:17 AM

Most Saiyans can't actually control themselves while Oozaru. Kids certainly can't. They act and react based on instinct.

They smash things, people attack them, they fight back.

Given enough Full Moons, a Saiyan could probably wipe out a planet even without consciously choosing to.

Gine was never implied to dislike fighting, just that she was bad at it. She was abnormally nice to other Saiyans and is treated as an aberration.

Gine had a gentle personality and wasn’t cut out as a warrior

So yeah.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:49:55 AM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18191: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:51:32 AM

Here, allow me to summarize.

  • Point: The Saiyans killed the Tuffles for no reason and took the planet for their own.
  • Counter: According to Vegeta, the Tuffles were assholes who enslaved the Saiyans.
  • Corroboration: According to Kaio-sama, the Tuffles had all the fertile land and food while Saiyans had rocks and dirt.

  • Point: The Saiyans were killing planets before Frieza ever came along.
  • Counter: The only planet we know of that stands as an example is Planet Vegeta itself which, see above. The PTO began employing the Saiyans immediately after the end of the Saiyan-Tuffle War. There was never a time in known history where they roamed the galaxy slaughtering worlds before the PTO came along. They've been involved with the PTO for as long as they've been a race more advanced than caves and mud.

  • Point: Saiyan infants are sent to planets and destroy them with their own instinctive lust for war and conquest.
  • Counter: That has never been true. According to Raditz, Saiyan children are following orders from their superiors. There's nothing instinctive about it; they're Child Soldiers acting on command of the only civilization they've ever known. Dragon Ball Minus supports this point, showing Goku older than an infant when he's sent to Earth.

  • Point: All Saiyans are irredeemable monsters.
  • Counter: Goku and Tarble grew up outside their culture and therefore never had a chance to become the kind of people that Nappa, Raditz, and Vegeta did.
  • Counter: Nappa and Raditz, while exactly the kind of genocidal madmen that the PTO wanted them to be, still cared about their fellow Saiyans and valued each other's lives. They were soldiers of genocide, but they not completely heartless.
  • Counter: Vegeta was completely heartless but still learned to value the lives of others and find a purpose in his life beyond murder and conquest. It was a long transition that took about a decade altogether, but he proved that even the worst Saiyan can be rehabilitated once free of the PTO and his own culture's terrible influence.

There is not now, nor has there ever been evidence for the Saiyans being Always Chaotic Evil.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:53:05 AM by TobiasDrake

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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18192: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:52:01 AM

@Pushover: What makes you think those are needed? What makes you think that we need to do anything more than just not putting them into pods that brainwash them into wanting to kill everything when they're babies, and then not let them be raised in a culture that encourages the attitude?

Because the evidence we have suggests that's all we'd need.

edited 12th Feb '16 11:52:49 AM by Gilphon

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18193: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:54:30 AM

[up][up]When did Vegeta say that stuff about the Tuffles? Was it from GT or something else?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18194: Feb 12th 2016 at 11:54:32 AM

I mean, even Goku tended to smash things when Full Moons were happening.

It's not quite his fault, and he didn't even remember it afterwards.

He didn't usually attack people unless they attacked first though. Mostly it was property damage.

When did Vegeta say that stuff about the Tuffles? Was it from GT or something else?

An old version of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. 1993. I think it was VHS?

edited 12th Feb '16 11:59:42 AM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18195: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:00:59 PM

Even Gohan smashed things when a Full Moon was out, and he was a gentle child who hated violence. The Oozaru is a feral Kaiju form. Yes, that does make raising a Saiyan child a bit more complicated, but still not impossible.

Goku lost an adoptive parent to the Oozaru, but the rest of the people who helped guide his upbringing found ways to work around it.

edited 12th Feb '16 12:02:09 PM by TobiasDrake

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#18196: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:02:52 PM

Really, the simplest way to do that is just to cut his tail off. Bam! No more problem.

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18197: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:03:52 PM

[up]

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18198: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:04:49 PM

I dunno how Vegeta learned how to control the transformation, but presumably it can be taught.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18199: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:06:46 PM

Which would have the added bonus that it doesn't require non-consensual mutilation of children!

That would probably be a social-progress goal after rehabilitation of Saiyan kids involving the cutting off of tails has already been working for a while.

edited 12th Feb '16 12:07:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18200: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:08:17 PM

Was it ever mentioned what they did with Trunks and Goten on that front? I'd assume they took the tails off at some point, but I can't recall it being mentioned.


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