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hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#18151: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:07:56 PM

Yeah, Raditz and Nappa say Vegeta is crueler, but when do we actually see Vegeta doing anything worse than what Nappa and Raditz would happily do in his position? Yeah, Vegeta didn't want to revive Raditz, and for a good reason - it would be a waste of a wish. And Vegeta did kill Nappa, but Nappa was crippled, and I'm not sure that's any worse than killing off an entire city.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#18152: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:11:02 PM

Nappa's reaction in both cases is shock at Vegeta's callous cruelty, which seems to suggest that these behaviors are outside the norm.

Also the first thing we see Vegeta do in the series is EATING THE CORPSE OF A SAPIENT BEING.

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18153: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:11:42 PM

Healing tanks are a thing.

Besides, Saiyans don't normally kill each other. At least, not going by Nappa's surprise at Vegeta killing him.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#18154: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:13:35 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that filler? And wasn't Nappa eating it too? And even that's still not as bad as mass murder, c'mon.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#18155: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:14:04 PM

[up][up][up]

So was Nappa, wasn't he?

edited 11th Feb '16 7:14:13 PM by AdricDePsycho

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18156: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:15:50 PM

[up][up]No, it wasn't filler. In the manga the creature he was eating was even more humanoid than in the anime.

edited 11th Feb '16 7:16:11 PM by LSBK

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#18157: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:17:41 PM

[up][up][up][up]Also, you say Saiyans don't normally kill each other, but Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta all clearly wanted to kill Goku.

edited 11th Feb '16 7:18:01 PM by hardcorefakes

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18158: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:18:29 PM

Well, for Nappa and Vegeta it was more for Goku being a traitor than anything else.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#18159: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:21:13 PM

Just looked up the manga panel. In Vegeta's defense, it's not like he was committing cannibalism there. And Nappa seemed okay with it too, but I won't assume he ate the creature as well. Maybe it's Saiyan culture to eat the flesh of those perceived as lesser beings?

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18160: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:21:20 PM

I mean, we don't see Vegeta doing anything significantly worse than Nappa, no, but are you sure that's a road you want to go down? Because if we start calling the things characters say about stuff like this into question, we can say stuff like 'how much about Saiyan society do we actually know? How much of it was just bullshit Freiza made up after the fact to justify himself? Was Goku ever really sent to earth to destroy it, or was that just what the survivors were lead to believe? Maybe Bardock was a lot less typical than we'd been lead to believe.'

But more concretely, imagine the alternative universe were Nappa and Raditz had been wished back to life. What role would they have had in the story, if they were a consistent presence? I don't have to hypothetical here, because there's a fairly clear precedent with Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta and the Androids. I would not be surprised in the least if their jerkass tendencies ended up getting downplayed a lot more than Vegeta's, would you?

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18161: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:21:44 PM

And for Raditz, he definitely wanted Goku to join up with him rather than having to resort to killing him.

Hell, he even kidnapped his nephew so he'd have even more reason to.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#18162: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:33:26 PM

[up][up]Villains becoming allies of the main characters is a common trope in Dragonball, so I agree that Nappa and Raditz could've "mellowed out" if they were revived. Although, Frieza doesn't seem to want to change, but he could be the exception.

[up]I felt like Raditz took Gohan out of spite, as a way of saying "there's nothing you can do about this Kakarot, I have your son and you're too weak to stop me."

edited 11th Feb '16 7:34:01 PM by hardcorefakes

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18163: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:38:51 PM

Mostly whether or not 'redemption' note  depends on if the villain keeps showing up after they lose a fight. Freiza is very clear exception when viewed in that light- he died permanently and thus stopped showing up, and they he got revived a decade later due to popular demand to bring him back as the villain.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18164: Feb 11th 2016 at 11:47:26 PM

[up][up]Then why did he wait around for Goku and Piccolo to show up?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#18165: Feb 11th 2016 at 11:55:33 PM

In Vegeta's defense, it's not like he was committing cannibalism there.

Pretty sure that the reason cannibalism taboos refer specifically to humans is that humans are the only creature we know of on our level of intelligence, who can communicate with us.

Like, if cows started talking to us, I'd bet that such taboos would extend to them before long.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that eating people is still eating people, even if they were born on a different planet than you.

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#18166: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:05:41 AM

But if crows can talk, does that mean the expression "to eat crow" is an allegory for cannibalism?

Anyway, I was under the impression that cannibalism being a taboo to humans was more because of the risk of spreading prions. Just like how incest evolved into a taboo because of the birth defects it can cause.

edited 12th Feb '16 12:07:03 AM by Anomalocaris20

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18167: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:11:47 AM

I'm pretty sure that eating other people was taboo long before we knew about prions.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#18168: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:27:10 AM

Can someone explain the cannibalism -> Disease thing? I mean, why are humans apparently so dangerous to eat since we still do eat animals? .-.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#18169: Feb 12th 2016 at 12:40:58 AM

[up][up]And incest was a taboo long before we learned of the potentially-fatal birth defects it can cause. Fear of heights is also hard-coded into most animals even though they don't understand velocity and gravity.

Years of natural selection beat that sort of instinctive avoidance into us because cannibals all died of prions. We just then call it a taboo and build moral reasoning around it to justify why we feel so off-put by it.

That being said, eating other sapient species, even if it were healthy to do so, would probably be considered objectionable as it's basically adding insult to what is already murder. Unless the victim comes from a culture that encourages the consumption of their dead, in which case it would be insulting NOT to devour your prey. And you wouldn't want that when you're a crusading genocidal monkey man.

edited 12th Feb '16 12:43:15 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#18170: Feb 12th 2016 at 3:40:12 AM

Erm, cannibalism was widespread in the Paleolithic, and is still quite common in populations that remain in the stone age.

It is a good way to dispose of a corpse, plus the whole "living through me" religious thing.

Killing an equal for the sole purpose of food seems to be rare, tho.

Also, you are making MANY assumptions with a cultural centric bias.

Prion diseases are also mostly related to eating nervous tissue, and, well, if you eat it, then you are eaten, then the ones that ate you are eaten, and all of you die of some sort of madness, well, people start to ponder than eating the brains of the dead is maybe not a good idea.

edited 12th Feb '16 3:42:30 AM by Eriorguez

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18171: Feb 12th 2016 at 8:34:06 AM

1. Who is the fifth Saiyan? Tarble? I'm 99% he's not canon, and even if he were, he only proves the point even more about the nature of Saiyans; they banished him due to his kind nature. Tells you a lot about the average Saiyan.

First, Tarble was created by Toriyama for a Dragon Ball special written by Toriyama. He's as canon as Beerus.

Second, banishment is a matter of culture, not nature. It's something that leaders do.

2. Context is important here. Goku didn't "develop" into a decent person, his nature was a fluke of luck, if not for brain damage, he would've killed every last Earthling, and he obviously wouldn't have been under the "influence" of the PTO. I'm confused what Frieza's organization even has to due with it, the Saiyans were barbaric before he even arrived; that's why he enslaved them for his army in the first place. He didn't need to "influence" them in any way.

3. As for Vegeta, again, another fluke. And to call Vegeta a "decent" person is a stretch too, he was slaughtering innocents up until the Buu Saga, even in Super Tien still doesn't trust Vegeta. And he's one of the "nicer" Saiyans. You can't use two examples of blatant outliers to a species that probably numbered in the hundreds of millions, that simply doesn't make any sense.

"Of the five data points, the minority are the obvious trend. All of the majority data points are individual flukes! You can't trust the data because I said so."

4. How did Nappa and Raditz start out "better" than Vegeta??? Raditz came to Earth and had a mind f*ck because he was wondering what the heck was taking Goku so long to cleanse the planet. Then he kidnapped Gohan out of spite, and was not going to hesitate to kill his own brother. And Nappa gleefully annihilated an entire city, and he killed a large portion of the Z-Fighters.

Because despite being in the business of genocide, they still valued the lives of other Saiyans. Raditz wanted to recruit Goku and Gohan. He abducted Gohan to coerce Goku into coming with him. Meanwhile, Nappa wanted to resurrect Raditz using the Dragon Balls but Vegeta pulled rank on him and insisted that Raditz should be left in his grave to rot. And then he killed Nappa in cold blood because, "A crippled Saiyan is of no value to me."

Nobody's saying they aren't mass murderers. They're everything the PTO culture has trained them to be. The point is that Vegeta is even worse, utterly abhorrent and despicable even by Nappa and Raditz's standards, and he still was able to turn over a new leaf as soon as he was out from under the shadow of Frieza's culture.

Of the five Saiyans we know, the only two who never escaped their positions as planet-killing monsters are also the only two who never escaped the influence of their culture.

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#18172: Feb 12th 2016 at 8:42:18 AM

Saiyans were dicks before they got into the PTO. What with the hole "taking over the Tuffles' planet" thing and all.

I'm just... sayin'.

edited 12th Feb '16 8:51:53 AM by Larkmarn

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18173: Feb 12th 2016 at 8:59:49 AM

Yes, they were. That's not in question.

What's in question is whether or not their culture is responsible for that, or if all Saiyans are inherently irredeemable murderers by nature of their birth. Goku, Tarble, and even Vegeta, an atrocious monster even by Saiyan standards, all stand as examples against the idea that Saiyan nature is to always be murderers, that Saiyans can never learn anything better and will always default to genocide.

Putting Saiyan infants to death is only a justifiable act if those infants could not have been taught a different way of life. It only makes sense if all Saiyans are naturally incapable of being something other than what their culture would have them be. That seems patently untrue.

edited 12th Feb '16 9:01:34 AM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#18174: Feb 12th 2016 at 9:48:27 AM

Goku just kind of stopped murdering after King Piccolo, up until the rematch with Goku...Vegeta has always fought with the intent to kill.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#18175: Feb 12th 2016 at 9:53:32 AM

To be fair, every single person Goku killed tried to kill him first, or was trying to kill someone else.

Plus, he obviously knows how to show restraint, if the Martial Arts tournaments are anything to go by. Sure, he often stomped someone powerful in one shot, but he didn't kill them.

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