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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18126: Feb 11th 2016 at 2:55:19 PM

@Pushover, Vegeta wasn't nurtured on Earth, he was already an adult who given the opportunity changed. And has been noted, he was apparently much worse than the other Saiyans so if he can change why can't they? I believe that is Tobias' pointed that you really haven't addressed.

edited 11th Feb '16 2:55:35 PM by LSBK

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18127: Feb 11th 2016 at 2:56:41 PM

You know what else is a barbaric warrior race?

Humans.

Seriously, our history is full of wars, usurpation of power, slavery, genocide and lots of horrible things.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#18128: Feb 11th 2016 at 2:56:50 PM

Humans don't kill everyone and everything as babies as a common strategy.

edited 11th Feb '16 2:58:15 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18129: Feb 11th 2016 at 2:58:48 PM

Well, except for that time when the king of the Saiyans was talking to his son about sending weak babies away so they wouldn't bother them anymore.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#18130: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:02:22 PM

Saiyan babies only have nature to go on. Saiyans are clearly at their most dangerous during their early childhood. Vegeta was reformed through pure luck and circumstances.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#18131: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:03:46 PM

King Vegeta knifed Broly, and weak babies like Kakarot were sent to weaker planets

Not disagreeing humans can be pretty barbaric, but we don't send infants to foreign countries for the sake of conquest. Yeah, child soldiers, but that's what percentage of mankind? Far as we were told about the Saiyans, their culture is war and barbarism, ours isn't.

The Saiyans almost seem bred for combat - their tails, their Zenkais, and if Goku and Vegeta any indication, their relatively easy grasp of ki concepts. It's an extremely easy leap to assume that one of their children sent off-world would grow to be a monster - in fact, said child was, in fact, sent there for that purpose.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:05:57 PM by Soble

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#18132: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:06:08 PM

No, many of our cultures aren't.

You see, Saiyans are united as a people, whereas humans aren't.

But if a violent and murderous king had taken over the world and his descendants had kept power, we probably would have ended up much like the Saiyans.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:06:23 PM by BaconManiac5000

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
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#18133: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:06:38 PM

What does knifing Broly have to do with the weak babies thing?

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#18134: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:06:47 PM

Not every person can change, but surely no one is suggesting that Vegeta was the only Saiyan that could.

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#18135: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:09:54 PM

Saiyan babies only have nature to go on. Saiyans are clearly at their most dangerous during their early childhood. Vegeta was reformed through pure luck and circumstances.

Not so. Raditz attributes the reason Goku didn't exterminate the population of the Earth to him forgetting his orders due to the brain damage, which means even the Saiyan "infants" are old enough when sent on-mission to have clear instructions for what they're supposed to do.

Raditz also brings up the moon, explaining that Goku was supposed to use the moon to become the Oozaru and clear the planet of life, and that it should only have taken a few years. That's why he's so agitated that, twenty years later, it's still heavily populated.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18136: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:15:26 PM

There was a filler episode that made it seem like on his way to Earth Goku was constantly being told to wipe out all life he meets by his pod. It even came with a projection of a fake moon in case the real one was somehow destroyed.

It does seem like something they'd do in the situation, getting all subliminal on the ones they sent away.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:16:11 PM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#18137: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:17:42 PM

What does knifing Broly have to do with the weak babies thing?

I was using that as an example of Saiyans being a rather cruel people.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18138: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:20:02 PM

[up][up] Even that would be a point of nurture, not nature, though. There's no indication that it is a Saiyan's nature to murder everything and anything forever.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#18139: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:21:42 PM

[up]I wasn't imply it was. But you brought up Goku being ordered to wipe out all life on Earth and I figure that's a way for him to have received those orders and presumably for them to stick.

edited 11th Feb '16 3:22:48 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#18140: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:34:53 PM
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#18141: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:35:57 PM

I wonder if they'll ever reference Jaco or Tights in Abridged.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#18142: Feb 11th 2016 at 3:59:37 PM

Depends on how much (or how little) they like them.

If it's the latter, don't expect much.

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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#18143: Feb 11th 2016 at 4:21:00 PM

Just want to pop in to say that using Vegeta as an example of non-brain-damaged Saiyans being potentially decent people doesn't really work.

He's mellowed in recent years but the universe is still worse off for his existence given he spent like 30 years genociding planets. It would take, like, a million years of being a heroic savior to get out of the red and have a net positive contribution to the universe, if we want to balance books.

Now, if you want to make a case that killing Saiyans as babies is wrong because they could potentially grow up to be good people, look no further than his brother Tarble. He's a much more servicable example and he didn't even need to bash his head on a rock.

edited 11th Feb '16 4:24:27 PM by Anomalocaris20

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hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
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#18144: Feb 11th 2016 at 5:16:41 PM

I'd argue that Tarble (is he canon?) is an outlier, and that guys like Nappa, Raditz, Vegeta, etc. are the overwhelming majority. That's not to say killing babies is okay, but I wouldn't use Tarble as an example on why the Saiyans deserve sympathy. They're clearly a violent species, a plague upon the galaxy, hence why Frieza employed them under his empire. A typical Saiyan baby would naturally genocide an entire planet, but I can't say the same about a typical human baby.

edited 11th Feb '16 5:21:17 PM by hardcorefakes

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#18145: Feb 11th 2016 at 5:32:14 PM

Of course, our society and species isn't built from the ground up for war so....

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hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
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#18146: Feb 11th 2016 at 5:43:31 PM

Yeah, and we also can't fly, or shoot beams of plasma out of our hands, or blow up moons, or turn into giant monkeys, etc.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18147: Feb 11th 2016 at 6:34:57 PM

Two out of five Saiyans grew up to be decent people. Those two also happen to be the two Saiyans who grew up away from the cultural influence of the PTO. One of the remaining three also developed into a decent person once he was away from the cultural influence of the PTO. Obvious correlation is obvious.

edited 11th Feb '16 6:35:59 PM by TobiasDrake

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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18148: Feb 11th 2016 at 6:43:11 PM

Plus Raditz and Nappa started out better than Vegeta, and then permanently died before they got a chance to get any development.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
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#18149: Feb 11th 2016 at 6:58:26 PM

1. Who is the fifth Saiyan? Tarble? I'm 99% he's not canon, and even if he were, he only proves the point even more about the nature of Saiyans; they banished him due to his kind nature. Tells you a lot about the average Saiyan.

2. Context is important here. Goku didn't "develop" into a decent person, his nature was a fluke of luck, if not for brain damage, he would've killed every last Earthling, and he obviously wouldn't have been under the "influence" of the PTO. I'm confused what Frieza's organization even has to due with it, the Saiyans were barbaric before he even arrived; that's why he enslaved them for his army in the first place. He didn't need to "influence" them in any way.

3. As for Vegeta, again, another fluke. And to call Vegeta a "decent" person is a stretch too, he was slaughtering innocents up until the Buu Saga, even in Super Tien still doesn't trust Vegeta. And he's one of the "nicer" Saiyans. You can't use two examples of blatant outliers to a species that probably numbered in the hundreds of millions, that simply doesn't make any sense.

4. How did Nappa and Raditz start out "better" than Vegeta??? Raditz came to Earth and had a mind f*ck because he was wondering what the heck was taking Goku so long to cleanse the planet. Then he kidnapped Gohan out of spite, and was not going to hesitate to kill his own brother. And Nappa gleefully annihilated an entire city, and he killed a large portion of the Z-Fighters.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18150: Feb 11th 2016 at 7:02:22 PM

Because Vegeta started out as the guy who those two thought of as abnormally cruel and sadistic. He started out worse than them, therefore they started out better than him. It's pretty straightforward.


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