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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#17926: Feb 4th 2016 at 1:50:57 PM

Yeah, that's one of the things I actually think Multiverse did well.

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#17927: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:37:33 PM

But it's not perfect. It doesn't explain 16's absence in the Future timeline. <.<

Personally, I think the simplest explanation is that 16 is present in the future timeline but Trunks never met him. Unlike the others, he was single focused on killing Goku, but Goku was already dead, so 16 didn't have anything to do. He either deactivated himself or simple wondered off somewhere.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17928: Feb 4th 2016 at 3:45:31 PM

Or, hell, 17 and 18 could have just destroyed him without activating him this time just to spite Gero.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#17929: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:06:33 PM

[up]Given how Gero didn't want to activate him, I don't see why that would happen. That is literally the opposite of what happened in the main time-line.

I mean, sure, alternate timelines and butterfly effect, etc. But I am trying to go to the simplest explanation and assuming everything was equal except for Trunks warning. 16 never bothering to show himself is perfect in line with his character so we don't need any further explanation than that.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17930: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:08:44 PM

I'm not saying it did happen just that it's a possibility. The two were hardly behaving rationally. I can very easily see them destroying everything Gero had ever built after killing him and then going on to terrorize the planet.

edited 4th Feb '16 5:13:55 PM by LSBK

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#17931: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:11:31 PM

If they knew 16 was based off of Gero's son, I can imagine them leaving Gero alive just long enough to see them kill 16 and destroy all of the man's work, just to toy with him before he dies.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#17932: Feb 4th 2016 at 6:56:50 PM

As for why 17 and 18 were weaker in the future... I like Multiverse's idea that they just get slightly weaker with time. I feel like this mystery should have a simple answer.

Well if Gero let them loose on his own terms in that timeline maybe in addition to making them crueler he also weakened them some for "control purposes". Not that it did him much good.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17933: Feb 5th 2016 at 6:33:27 AM

I know there's an explanation, I just think it's a silly handwave. I can accept one use of it, but when it keeps coming up it just gets ridiculous.

I don't think it would work unless it was used consistently. If Gero started making them stronger again while still not being able to control them due to making them too strong, he'd be the biggest idiot in the series.

The series does have Gero/20 be stronger than 19, the first successful model. I think that makes it work best.

Wait, you are talking about Cell before he absorbed anyone, right? Since when he was stronger than Vegeta? They never fought.

Before entering the room, Goku says he's definitely no match for Cell, and others say Goku isn't that inferior to Vegeta at the time. I guess if you consider Vegeta an opponent Goku "definitely can't beat" he could be stronger than Cell. But Vegeta himself admits that Piccolo is far superior to him (and this isn't even Piccolo's full power) while his own power is comparable to 18.

That's the one I like, incidentally. It's the Occam's Razor answer to reality failing to meet a character's expectations: the character who expressed the contradicting opinion is wrong, because knowledge and interpretation are highly fallible.

I like the answer as well, especially given the placement of the manga version of Trunks: The Story

I also like that as the explanation for why Trunks had no idea that Androids 19 and 20 were a thing. The headcanon is that Gohan wasn't there for that battle because without Trunks's warning, everybody wasn't camping out the spot waiting to group-mob them and instead had to fly out the scene after the first attack had begun. Piccolo and Vegeta made short work of them, but Gero escaped as he does and awakened 17 and 18. 17 killed him and together the two slaughtered everybody.

The problem is that Trunks originally mentions Androids 19 and 20 showing up on that island (because this was before the retcon) so explaining it would be pretty convoluted. Like, the sequence would have to be - Gohan/Bulma tell Trunks that Android 19 and 20 attacked without explaining how they were different from 17/18 or what happened to them, Trunks went on fighting 17/18 without ever learning their numbers, traveled back in time, found out 17 and 18's numbers and just completely disregarded how he previously knew them without reflecting on it or putting two and two together when he met the actual 19 and 20. That one line makes it really fricking hard to explain anything simply.

That's more or less the official answer, but as a big fan of time travel mechanics, I hate that explanation. "The time travel changes things that had nothing to do with the events that changed because...uh...butterfly effect! Chaos theory! Quantum mechanics! It's time travel, we don't have to explain it."

To be fair, it's first brought up in relation to Goku's heart virus. Piccolo speculates that the timing of it changed due to the alterations in history. I quite like the idea of time travel fucking with matters relating to time, since the very act is violating the laws of the universe. Especially with all the recent material about how time travel is bad. This explains the Androids' late attack and Goku's heart virus coming at a different time, and could potentially explain the change in the Android line-up if Gero's planned adjustments on 17/18 were delayed in the present or he didn't get Android 16 to a stage where he could be reactivated in the future.

Discrepancies in timing of certain events is a fair way to have the butterfly effect that actually relates to time travel and isn't totally unexplained.

Which guidebook? I remember this coming up before, maybe in the main DB thread, and most people just seem tot take this one as a given. I didn't but my reasoning was more refuted.

Daizenshuu 7, in the characters bios. They mention that the future 17 and 18 are somewhat inferior to their present counterparts in terms of power.

Yeah, that's one of the things I actually think Multiverse did well.

I hated that. Just outright said "no such thing as infinite energy" as the reason why they got weaker. I find that incredibly stupid that you'd draw the line at infinite energy as a concept when you've got time travel and capsule technique and magic.

Hell, Yamcha's explanation is that they are constantly losing energy and can't recover it on their own. Not only do they not have infinite energy, they're actually worse at conserving energy than flesh and blood beings.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17934: Feb 5th 2016 at 6:50:02 AM

Wow, yeah, that sounds dumb. If that were the case, 17 would've lost to Piccolo. The whole point of that fight was that however strong Piccolo is, he only has so much stamina, whereas 17 and 18 can just keep going like murderous energizer bunnies.

I have a message from another time...
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17935: Feb 5th 2016 at 6:52:37 AM

I thought the reason for the delay of the heart virus was because Goku never fought Mecha Freeza and King Cold. Since he never really did anything as a Super Saiyan for those three years, the heart virus took longer to take effect. That's why Goku seems relatively fine at the start of the battle and then is suddenly dying shortly after going Super Saiyan.

I also have to wonder why the heal everything magical bean can't cure the heart virus.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17936: Feb 5th 2016 at 6:56:34 AM

Because it's not a heal everything bean. It heals injuries.

And that theory would work, because Vegeta says turning Super Saiyan made the strain on Goku's heart worse.

[up][up] Well, even though Multiverse doesn't actually explain that, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they meant that the energy drain is slow enough to be beneficial in short fights.

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#17937: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:33:27 AM

[up][up]To be fair, I think Goku probably trained harder in the timeline where he knew the Androids were coming, than he probably did in Trunk's timeline. Whether or not he trained in Super Saiyan is another matter, especially given that nobody - save Vegeta, who was likely away from Earth for a huge part of that time - was capable of matching his SS power.

Personally, I'd think he'd still go SS at least a few times, both to keep himself easily capable of transforming when necessary, as well as maintaining his understanding of its power, and how to control it.

edited 5th Feb '16 9:35:01 AM by Reservoir

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17938: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:36:12 AM

We see him training as a Super Saiyan, in the manga.

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#17939: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:41:23 AM

Ah, so then it's unlikely his transformation against 19 is what caused the heart virus to strike, then.

I wonder if Saiyan immune systems work better when the body is constantly being exercised and worked? If that were the case, then the intensity of his training - against a coming threat vs. just for giggles - could've been the deciding factor in how long the virus took to debilitate him.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17940: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:46:35 AM

He might not have trained for long as a Super Saiyan, though. Even if he did, the strain of a fight against Freeza and King Cold would be nothing compared to training with someone who has a third of his base power and someone who's far weaker than that.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17941: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:50:28 AM

[up] I think you have that the other way around.

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#17942: Feb 5th 2016 at 9:50:55 AM

There's simply too much we don't know about the Future Trunks timeline, especially the bit between Goku's victory against Frieza on Namek, and the arrival and initial fighting against the Androids.

I'd love to see how the fight between Mecha Frieza, King Cold, and SS Goku would've been, especially since the threat against Earth would've been serious enough to put Goku into full combat mode.

edited 5th Feb '16 9:51:12 AM by Reservoir

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17943: Feb 5th 2016 at 4:20:21 PM

Episode 51 Breakdown in which Kaiser finally addresses the elephant in the room:

Why he addresses Goku's name the way he does lol.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17944: Feb 5th 2016 at 4:24:01 PM

Daizenshuu 7, in the characters bios. They mention that the future 17 and 18 are somewhat inferior to their present counterparts in terms of power.

Really? So it's not just that they were holding back and Trunks never knew?

Man, there's always new shit coming out isn't there?

I hated that. Just outright said "no such thing as infinite energy" as the reason why they got weaker. I find that incredibly stupid that you'd draw the line at infinite energy as a concept when you've got time travel and capsule technique and magic.

Maybe it was a flaw that Gero might have repaired if he'd lived, but died before he could discover it, while the Gero of the world Yamcha came from did find out about it.

Hell, Yamcha's explanation is that they are constantly losing energy and can't recover it on their own. Not only do they not have infinite energy, they're actually worse at conserving energy than flesh and blood beings.

Once again, Gero could have just messed up and died before getting a chance to fix it....or deliberately put it in as a control measure (if you don't do what I say, you'll run out of power eventually and be helpless) but was killed before he could really explain it.

I mean, when you think about it, we were talking before in one of the threads about why he made himself a weaker model, so maybe that's it right there. The energy draining models are weaker, but provided you can find energy to suck, you can keep your power constant.

One Strip! One Strip!
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#17945: Feb 5th 2016 at 4:39:05 PM

I thought DBM's thing was less that they didn't have Infinite Energy and more that no maintenance meant that their bodies gradually became less efficient at drawing on that energy?

#IceBearForPresident
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#17946: Feb 5th 2016 at 4:43:50 PM

Nah, it was specifically stated that there's no such thing as infinite energy in Multiverse.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#17947: Feb 5th 2016 at 5:12:13 PM

Wait, that was the Solar Flare Freeze-Frame Bonus for Episode 51?

...Christ.

Oh God! Natural light!
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#17948: Feb 5th 2016 at 5:29:53 PM

Just be glad they only showed the top half of that shot.

In GOOD news, we're just over 10,000 subscribers away from World's Strongest Abridged.

Has anyone here watched the opening to episode 51 and decided to watch Steven Universe to see what the reference was, then get hooked on the show?

edited 5th Feb '16 5:35:34 PM by WillKeaton

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#17949: Feb 5th 2016 at 5:30:27 PM

How many did he say again?

50000?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#17950: Feb 5th 2016 at 5:38:58 PM

[up][up]No that's not how references work, we're not suppose to get them.

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