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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#17901: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:03:32 PM

Canon is a beautiful thing and the only thing that allows me to care about any series.

edited 3rd Feb '16 9:04:51 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17902: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:08:45 PM

Canon can be a chain that pulls you back from the brink, or wraps itself around your neck to choke you like a bitch.

It's your choice which is which.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17903: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:20:15 PM

Whether canon matters to me depends largely on what the series in question is like.

It matters to me here but much less so than things I'm actually currently reading. And I couldn't care less about Roshi so that makes it even less important to me in this situation.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#17904: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:20:31 PM

Cannon is a barrel full of gun powder. The type of barrel that you don't want to mess with, because one bad move and a everything is a mess.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#17905: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:23:41 PM

Canon is like cannon.

In that they both sink ships.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#17906: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:33:40 PM

Canon represents the history of that fictional universe.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17907: Feb 3rd 2016 at 9:43:25 PM

No, the history of it would be a documentary of how the writer created it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#17908: Feb 3rd 2016 at 10:36:55 PM

Canon represents the in-universe history of the fictional universe. Just assume that 95% of the time, I'm talking about the Watsonian perspective.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17909: Feb 4th 2016 at 4:15:22 AM

But it's fiction. It can't have history. That'd be silly.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17910: Feb 4th 2016 at 5:22:55 AM

Sounds like a fundamental disagreement. Nobody's wrong or right here.

I have a message from another time...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17911: Feb 4th 2016 at 6:53:42 AM

16 was never deadly to anyone except Son Gokus, and the only person who says 17 is stronger is 17, their energy can't be sensed, and from what we can see the difference seems to be pretty negligible in practice.

No, the Androids ABCs (an explanation of the various Androdis) in the manga also says that 17 is stronger. The difference is probably pretty big, because Vegeta and Android 18 weren't that far apart (they fought evenly until Vegeta's power dropped from Super Saiyan), but Piccolo was easily able to smack around first form Cell who was stronger than Vegeta.

I don't like 16 being stronger than 17 and 18. Besides the power levels shrinking as the production line went on just being silly at that point, I liked him vs Cell a lot better when I thought it was another Tien vs Cell situation

The Androids getting weaker was actually explained in the story, though. Putting too much emphasis on power made them too difficult to control, so Gero was lowering their power as he went to try and gain control. It wasn't enough, so he switched back to energy absorbing models which are even easier to control.

I like this explanation because it explains why the Androids he wasn't using were also better in both power and abilities. Instead of being coincidence, the two things are linked.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17912: Feb 4th 2016 at 6:58:20 AM

The fights with 17 and 18 largely followed the same pattern of the non-cyborg seeming to do well before their opponent revealed that they never really had a shot. That kind of fight makes it harder to tell what the latter fighter's limit is.

I'd never heard of that explanation for them being different than the bad future ones. Now I just wish we had an explanation for why Gero made that decision.

I have a message from another time...
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17913: Feb 4th 2016 at 7:04:03 AM

An explanation I've heard (not totally sure if it's canon or not) is that the reason the androids in FT's time line went all eliminate humanity is because Gero screwed up the reprogramming he was doing so not only did they not want to obey him, they also wanted to kill everyone.

That whole him making them weaker thing could also count as an explanation for why FT's androids were supposedly weaker. Gero scaled them further back than the ones in the main timeline.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17914: Feb 4th 2016 at 7:04:49 AM

[up][up]Well, not really. 18 vs Vegeta had her reveal she was holding back and then she quickly smacked Vegeta around... and then he also was holding back (which she anticipated) and then they fought evenly, and then Piccolo noticed Veggie's power was dropping, and then 18 defeated him.

17 vs Piccolo had them both go full effort, but 17 pointed out pretty early that he'll win if it just continues like this. His reaction to Piccolo's Light Grenade might have meant Piccolo could have beaten him with it though if Piccolo hadn't been keeping it up his sleeve.

(Manga) 17 vs Future Gohan is the only one where the Android just goes "Haha wasn't serious" and defeats their opponent.

[up] That explanation is a fan theory. We aren't told what it is.

Two possible theories for the power

a) 17's "I'm not even using half my power" line to Future Gohan was meant to suggest that he also did the same thing to Trunks, so Trunks didn't know their full power when comparing 17 and 18 (so they're actually the same strength). Debunked by a guidebook

b) Due to things in this timeline going differently, Gero had a chance to continue his work on 17 and 18 (which he mentions his intention to when he's forced to activate them early in the present timeline). If Gero's attempts to control them was like stripping away their individuality, the process may have made them more ruthless and less empathetic.

edited 4th Feb '16 7:08:19 AM by Saiga

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#17915: Feb 4th 2016 at 7:45:02 AM

Piccolo was easily able to smack around first form Cell who was stronger than Vegeta.

Wait, you are talking about Cell before he absorbed anyone, right? Since when he was stronger than Vegeta? They never fought.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#17916: Feb 4th 2016 at 7:52:25 AM

Well, he had absorbed a town but... yeah. Piccolo kicked Cell's ass, but that was Cell's very first fight so we have no idea how strong he was.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17917: Feb 4th 2016 at 7:59:51 AM

a) 17's "I'm not even using half my power" line to Future Gohan was meant to suggest that he also did the same thing to Trunks, so Trunks didn't know their full power when comparing 17 and 18 (so they're actually the same strength). Debunked by a guidebook

It was? That's what I believed for years.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#17918: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:06:42 AM

The Androids getting weaker was actually explained in the story, though.

I know there's an explanation, I just think it's a silly handwave. I can accept one use of it, but when it keeps coming up it just gets ridiculous.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17919: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:16:35 AM

a) 17's "I'm not even using half my power" line to Future Gohan was meant to suggest that he also did the same thing to Trunks, so Trunks didn't know their full power when comparing 17 and 18 (so they're actually the same strength). Debunked by a guidebook

That's the one I like, incidentally. It's the Occam's Razor answer to reality failing to meet a character's expectations: the character who expressed the contradicting opinion is wrong, because knowledge and interpretation are highly fallible.

I also like that as the explanation for why Trunks had no idea that Androids 19 and 20 were a thing. The headcanon is that Gohan wasn't there for that battle because without Trunks's warning, everybody wasn't camping out the spot waiting to group-mob them and instead had to fly out the scene after the first attack had begun. Piccolo and Vegeta made short work of them, but Gero escaped as he does and awakened 17 and 18. 17 killed him and together the two slaughtered everybody.

Because nobody who ever met 19 and 20 lived through 17 and 18's massacre, it just coalesced in Gohan and Bulma's knowledge as, "Two androids woke up and killed everyone."

But it's not perfect. It doesn't explain 16's absence in the Future timeline. <.<

edited 4th Feb '16 8:19:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#17920: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:34:34 AM

I'm of the theory that Trunks time traveling resulted in the timeline changing as a ripple effect took hold. The very act of Trunks going back in time made the events play out differently and resulted in different variables to change the future.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17921: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:36:56 AM

That's more or less the official answer, but as a big fan of time travel mechanics, I hate that explanation.

"The time travel changes things that had nothing to do with the events that changed because...uh...butterfly effect! Chaos theory! Quantum mechanics! It's time travel, we don't have to explain it."

edited 4th Feb '16 8:37:53 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#17922: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:39:34 AM

To be fair, time travel itself is bullshit. Like power levels.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17923: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:51:55 AM

a) 17's "I'm not even using half my power" line to Future Gohan was meant to suggest that he also did the same thing to Trunks, so Trunks didn't know their full power when comparing 17 and 18 (so they're actually the same strength). Debunked by a guidebook

Which guidebook? I remember this coming up before, maybe in the main DB thread, and most people just seem tot take this one as a given. I didn't but my reasoning was more refuted.

[up]Well, theoretically one way time travel is supposedly possible. I don't remember if it was forward or backwards but that might be a thing. Nothing about getting back to your own time, though.

edited 4th Feb '16 8:53:31 AM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17924: Feb 4th 2016 at 8:52:50 AM

I'm guessing it's a combination of everything.

Or we may never be sure. Also consider that Larva Cell had been on the planet for a full year before Trunk showed up to kill Frieza (and it's entirely possible that the reason Trunks thought he had to do that is because Cell's existence in the past altered things enough to make Goku act a few seconds later than he did in the original timeline, where he likely just Instant Transmissioned himself to location of the battle).

There's a lot of misinformation and wibbly wobbly time wimey going on here. I say kill em all and let Beerus....kill them more...which is how he sorts things out.

edited 4th Feb '16 8:53:06 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#17925: Feb 4th 2016 at 1:37:48 PM

I like Tobias' explanation, mainly because it can also explain other inconsistencies. For example, we can assume that the circumstances in which 17 and 18 woke up were different, therefore, they didn't wake up 16 out of their own accord. Maybe Gero really did experiment further on them, making them more cruel. There's plenty of room for theories on what actually happened in the original timeline.

As for why 17 and 18 were weaker in the future... I like Multiverse's idea that they just get slightly weaker with time. I feel like this mystery should have a simple answer.


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