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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17326: Dec 28th 2015 at 3:21:36 PM

[up][up]You've made that very clear.

As far as Abriged!Goku's training. I don't see why it can't be both. Yeah, he really wants to see Gohan go Super Saiyan but I've seen nothing to indicated that he also isn't enjoying this fahter/son time. The song reads as both to me, as well.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#17327: Dec 28th 2015 at 3:32:27 PM

There's nothing precluding it from being both. What's important is how Gohan reads it. Right now, he's interpreting all this attention as the fatherly love that he feels he's been denied the last few years.

When Goku sends him out to fight Cell, Piccolo explains during his Why You Are A Shitty Father Speech that Gohan isn't a natural-born fighter like Goku and that Goku's failure to even consult Gohan on this plan and decision to just send him out and expect him to thrive has resulted in Gohan not trying to find the way to beat Cell but instead wondering why his father sent him out here alone to die.

TFS is almost certainly going to play up that element, which can easily be done with Gohan assuming that the only reason Goku was training him in the first place was to be a weapon. That Goku never really loved him after all. This pain will probably be the catalyst for Gohan hitting Super Saiyan 2, and his subsequent sadism.

Goku and Gohan's reconciliation in the Father-Son Kamehameha scene can then be about Goku apologizing to Gohan for making him feel that way and assuring him that he really does love him and really did enjoy spending time with him after all.

edited 28th Dec '15 3:33:40 PM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17328: Dec 28th 2015 at 3:35:46 PM

I guess that makes sense. You know, I think I'd like Piccolo's speech better if more people acknowledged that he wasn't entirely right with what he said.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#17329: Dec 28th 2015 at 3:59:42 PM

Honestly, considering how things had been the past few years I could completely see where he was coming from. Raditz came because of him. Vegeta and Nappa, as well as Frieza all got involved because of Raditz. Frieza was coming to Earth because of Goku. And then the whole thing with Gero and the Androids started because Gero wanted revenge. Plus, people wanting revenge on Goku has been a thing since he was a kid.

It is not like being dead helped much in Trunks' future... Then again I can believe Goku simply forgot that part.

[up]Was that ever disputed? I don't remember anyone saying Piccolo was 100% right. Only we pointing out that Piccolo have a damn good point. I mean, to me it is never about Piccolo being correct on his supposition about what Gohan was thinking. But about the fact Goku should have considered the possibility himself. Goku was completely ignored Gohan's perspective, which is a shitty thing to do. Which he wonderfully recognized after Piccolo pointed out, which is nice.

edited 28th Dec '15 4:01:50 PM by Heatth

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17330: Dec 28th 2015 at 4:03:33 PM

[up]I didn't say here, but yes, people have. People like oversimplifying things. And again, I'm not pretending it wasn't a shitting thing to do.

edited 28th Dec '15 4:04:20 PM by LSBK

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17331: Dec 28th 2015 at 4:59:53 PM

I feel like I've said this before, but I don't want Gohan going SSJ 2 to be related to Goku's parenting, simply because the moment is so iconic. I don't want TFS to completely change the meaning behind it.

It'd be like making Goku go Super Saiyan NOT because Krillin died, but because Krillin owed him food, and now he isn't going to get it.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17332: Dec 28th 2015 at 5:44:30 PM

The story also does nothing to suggest Piccolo is less than 100% right. Nobody argues with what he says, so I think Toriyama intended for him to be totally right and just dropped the ball. The whole situation was a massive load of balls being dropped all over the face. I-I mean place.

When Goku sends him out to fight Cell, Piccolo explains during his Why You Are A Shitty Father Speech that Gohan isn't a natural-born fighter like Goku and that Goku's failure to even consult Gohan on this plan and decision to just send him out and expect him to thrive has resulted in Gohan not trying to find the way to beat Cell but instead wondering why his father sent him out here alone to die.

Part of the issue with that is that it's not accurate at all. Goku didn't tell Gohan the plan in advance... but it's not like he didn't tell him the plan at all like Piccolo suggests.

Goku made it perfectly clear why he needed Gohan to fight Cell. Hell, his own fight with Cell was intended to help demonstrate that point to Gohan - Goku clearly couldn't beat Cell, and Gohan could see that Goku was weaker than him. He made a point of pointing this all out to Gohan, and explained that he wasn't holding back so Gohan would understand that Goku's full power pales in comparison to his own.

The issue should not be that Gohan doesn't understand. The issue is that Goku sprang it on Gohan too late, so Gohan didn't get to have his say in the plan. It was too late for him to object, or offer any input. It was too late for him to prepare himself, or even for him to truly agree to it.

But instead Gohan just seems to throw out everything he just heard and saw and apparently has no idea what's going on. Goku couldn't have explained things any clearer without using a fucking diagram.

What is your favorite couple in abridged and regular series canon? For abridged it's Bulma and Vegeta for making me laugh so hard during the sex scene. My favorite regular series couple should be obvious.

Judging from your new avatar... Goku x Vegeta?

Abridged - Vegeta/Bulma for the hilarity.

Canon - Gohan/Videl. Only manga couple to have decent development, however Vegeta/Bulma have had more development after the manga ended and I really like their current dynamic.

Part of Videl's issue comes down to the fact that the Boo arc suddenly changed to a different kind of story during the tournament, one where she didn't have much to contribute. And THEN Goku became the main character again, so her connection to Gohan wasn't enough to keep her important - because Gohan was no longer as important.

And now she's just gone and lost all of her character to be a traditional Japanese housewife. I don't let that sour me on the original relationship shown at the start of the Boo arc, though. It's just another thing the new content is letting me down on.

18 and Bulma didn't fall victim to that, right?

Heh, Bulma never would. She's as atypical as you can get. Though she still fell victim to bad writing in Battle of Gods where she's used for Vegeta's power-up, as already mentioned. That's a different issue though.

18 kind of avoiding victim to it by having nothing to lose. We don't know jack shit about her originally. No hobbies, barely any personality. Toriyama even acknowledges she was Kuririn's "reward" . She didn't even have much agency in the Cell arc, after her fight with Vegeta she mostly just follows 17 around as he decides the course they'll take to Goku. Then 17 fights Piccolo, 17 and Piccolo fight Cell, 16 fights Cell, Vegeta fights Cell, Trunks fights Vegeta and Cell, she briefly encounters Kuririn aaaaand absorbed.

She spends most of the arc watching the men fight and waiting diligently to be absorbed, while Kuririn crushed on her. Surprisingly, despite being paired up with Kuririn for his sake, it's after they get together that she gets her own subplot instead of just being forgotten. The Boo arc actually gives her more focus than Kuririn - he goes off to fight the main, high stakes battle, but she stays behind to fight for something she cares more about. He gets turned to stone while she gets to have a fight and swindle Mr Satan, resolving her own subplot.

But come the new material, what has she done? The only time she's fought is when it doesn't matter at all (Beerus) and then she's made to Stay in the Kitchen the next time there's a big battle that the weaker cast members can actually make a difference in.

Fighting is the closest thing she had to a hobby, and it doesn't look like she'll be doing that any time soon. I feel pretty confident saying she won't get another subplot like her tournament one, at least.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17333: Dec 28th 2015 at 5:52:10 PM

Also, I have an issue with people claiming that Krillin/18 is more developed here, no it isn't, at least not in any truly significant way.

Yeah, Krillin has a few lines about how he's interested in her (which he might have had in the original I'm not sure) but he only realizes his feelings are "love" at the exact same time as he did in the real thing. Other than that he just sees her as a hot girl he might have a shot with.

And it's even more apparent with 18, besides her calling him "the cute one" and thinking she's going to "rock his world" for trying to help him, it's obvious she hasn't been thinking about Krillin at all, just like in the original.

What they do with the relationship afterwards is another matter but trying to claim that 18/Krillin are oh so developed here rings extremely hollow to me. It's barely different if it all.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#17334: Dec 28th 2015 at 5:54:28 PM

[up][up][up]YES.

They kept Goku's motivation for turning Super the same, and he was even dumber then.

edited 28th Dec '15 5:54:54 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17335: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:07:34 PM

Though I won't lie, there is a part of me that does want to see Goku, unintentionally, showing favoritism towards Goten just to twist the knife further. Just having Gohan try to temper Goten's expectations of their father only to cut to the two doing their heartwarming meeting.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#17336: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:26:57 PM

The whole situation was a massive load of balls being dropped all over the face. I-I mean place.

Now wait just a damn minute here, did Saiga just tell a joke?

edited 28th Dec '15 7:29:38 PM by Soble

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BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#17337: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:35:52 PM

I would like them to try to expand a bit on exactly why Android 16 in particular affected Gohan so sharply. Maybe play up the "he can't be brought back — this is the first time Gohan's ever seen a permanent death before" angle.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17338: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:39:56 PM

I don't think they need to do that, I don't think that Gohan needs a deep reason to be effected by that. It's who Gohan is, he doesn't want to see anyone get hurt.

In fact, it makes a great contrast to Goku. Goku's meant to be a more selfish character, it takes the closest people to him being hurt to trigger his rage. That's why Kuririn works best as his Super Saiyan trigger.

Having Gohan's rage trigger off someone dying who wasn't close to him shows he's different. Goku probably wouldn't have that reaction.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17339: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:45:36 PM

On the flip side that does make Gohan a bit of a dick for not being triggered enough by his friends and family getting tortured by the Cell Jrs. tongue

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#17340: Dec 28th 2015 at 7:48:45 PM

Yeah, I never got why some people like to paint Gohan and 16 as having some great bond or anything. I don't even think they spoke before 16 gave him that talk. Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 wasn't about 16, specifically dying, it was about someone dying in front of him when he could have stopped it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17341: Dec 28th 2015 at 8:02:33 PM

[up][up] yeah but they didn't die

also Cell noted that Gohan's power was rising when the Cell Juniors were beating his friends

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#17342: Dec 28th 2015 at 8:34:27 PM

I'm thinking that Gohan has never fought against the androids, so he has no reason not to trust 16, and 16's a sweetheart.

The legend has returned.
Mullon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: And here's to you, Mrs. Robinson
#17343: Dec 28th 2015 at 9:30:00 PM

Well now I'm jealous of Krillin.

Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#17344: Dec 28th 2015 at 9:47:43 PM

[up][up]That's backwards, mang.

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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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#17345: Dec 28th 2015 at 10:40:13 PM

Either way, Gohan was going to go SSJ 2 any second from that point. 16 just allowed him to transform without one of the main cast members being a casualty. Any second longer, and the humans would have probably been dead.

In a way, it was sort of like a Heroic Sacrifice. Although 16 didn't necessarily know that.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17346: Dec 28th 2015 at 10:41:21 PM

Well of course he didn't know that, he would have no conscious after Cell kills him.

edited 29th Dec '15 1:13:59 AM by Saiga

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17347: Dec 28th 2015 at 11:02:53 PM

Cell didn't give him a conscience. 16 sort of built up a conscience through bird-watching.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#17349: Dec 29th 2015 at 12:38:43 AM

...I think Saiga meant conscious, as opposed to conscience.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17350: Dec 29th 2015 at 1:14:47 AM

yeah that too

I also said 'gives' instead of 'kills' before my first edit


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