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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17201: Dec 27th 2015 at 12:22:18 AM

There isn't any more characterisation here than in the original.

Both were acting for exactly the same reasons, even the fact that the shut down remote was changed to a detonator changes nothing because at this point Kuririn was thinking about destroying her anyway.

The changes are mostly different ways of getting the same points across. And also more humour.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17202: Dec 27th 2015 at 12:28:09 AM

Perhaps I've just been on this website too long. There are some tropers who insist that the entire Android Saga is an Idiot Plot. I mean, it's on the pages for DBZ.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#17203: Dec 27th 2015 at 12:33:57 AM

Really, you could make a Drinking Game for how often the entire Android/Cell Saga is called an Idiot Plot.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Zennistrad from The Multiverse Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: I don't mind being locked in this eternal maze!
#17204: Dec 27th 2015 at 12:56:50 AM

I kind of agree that it's hard to call it an Idiot Plot when it involves characters whose supposed idiocy is a central part of their characterization.

Vegeta letting Cell become perfect out of pride is foolish, but he wouldn't be Vegeta if he weren't so willing to do dumb things to satiate his ego. Cell was doing something that's actually rather intelligent for a villain: exploiting a protagonist's central character flaw.

edited 27th Dec '15 12:57:21 AM by Zennistrad

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#17205: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:04:12 AM

Tropes Are Not Bad, guys. You're saying reasons it's not bad writing, not reasons it's not an Idiot Plot.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17206: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:21:27 AM

It feel like one Troper is really insistent on it. I mean, the Idiot Plot page doesn't mention anything about the Buu Saga, despite it ALSO only occuring because the main characters were acting like idiots. And those idiocies were in-character and consistent with their flaws.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#17207: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:27:56 AM

It's Tobias Drake who thinks that the Cell Saga is an Idiot Plot. I disagree with him.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#17208: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:29:17 AM

[up][up][up] That's because Idiot Plot is typically used for situations where characters do stupid things because the plot needs them to be stupid rather than it making sense, rather than situations where characters do stupid things because it's perfectly in character for them to do so.

There are certainly parts of the Cell/Android Saga (and DBZ in general) that are the former, but I agree that this moment isn't one of them.

edited 27th Dec '15 1:32:43 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#17209: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:32:10 AM

[up]I'd argue that the Cell Saga is an example of both applying at once: characters acting stupidly to move the plot along while still staying in-character.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#17210: Dec 27th 2015 at 1:33:04 AM

On a kinda related note, I like how the episode pulls no punches over how nasty and detestable Vegeta's actions are. He almost comes off as the villain of this episode.

edited 27th Dec '15 1:34:15 AM by KnownUnknown

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17211: Dec 27th 2015 at 2:22:36 AM

Which is just going to make Cell's utter domination (and trolling) of him even more satisfying.

TFS got it right in Season 2. "Have you ever heard of Karma?"

Why can't Episode 52 come out yesterday?

I mean, Perfect Cell is all about trolling and chewing the scenery. Just like Alucard. Taka is such a perfect fit for him. It's amazing.

edited 27th Dec '15 2:26:18 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#17212: Dec 27th 2015 at 4:27:29 AM

Well, they may be touching the other world filler... Freeza and Cell interacting may turn out to be one of the best things ever...

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#17213: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:07:31 AM

Honestly, looking at the entry for Android saga, it's less Idiot Plot and more a lot of bitching because the protagonists aren't perfect. It's like saying it's an Idiot Plot because Dr. Gero was dumb to obsess over revenge. Or Frieza Saga was dumb because he didn't just immediately blow up the planet.

edited 27th Dec '15 6:14:54 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#17214: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:13:59 AM

The whole saga is 'stupid people doing stupid things' with the Idiot Ball being passed around from one person to the next. It pretty much starts from Goku not taking his meds all the way to the end of the saga, it's completely in character for each person though.

edited 27th Dec '15 6:18:14 AM by Memers

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17215: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:23:12 AM

In the actual series, the medicine was for a virus, not cholesterol. And the medicine was medicine, not a vaccine.

If Goku took it when he wasn't sick, he might not have had it for when he was.

There is no way to read Goku not taking it ahead of time as an actual problem.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#17216: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:29:55 AM

Let's go through these examples and see how "brilliant" things would be.

  • Piccolo's urge to destroy 17 and save the day provided a huge energy beacon to pinpoint their location.

The androids showed up hunting Goku. Piccolo has no other choice but to fight. This isn't him being an idiot, it's a tough situation where there just isn't any winning option. What alternative was there? Can't control everything.

  • Tenshinhan using his Tri-Beam to incapacitate Cell would, given that it immobilised Cell for a long while, probably have been used to significant effect against Imperfect Cell - who he'd been observing before Cell absorbed Android 17 and transformed. It also took Android 18 far too long to even consider escaping while Tenshinhan was sacrificing his life for her.

I agree, she should have ran.

  • Krillin's refusal to destroy 18 and Vegeta's urge to face a stronger opponent both allowed him to ascend to his perfect form.

Already covered this, though the Vegeta example is especially ridiculous because that's literally who he is. It's his very personality and his Fatal Flaw.

  • Cell wasn't immune, either - giving them ten days training could be reasonably considered a bad move on the off-chance they have some massive power-booster than takes a few days, such as, maybe, a Year Inside, Hour Outside training room.

Again, personality, he's cocky as hell, especially given the collection of personalities here in play.

  • Goku dreaming up a ridiculous Batman Gambit in order to get Gohan - his ten-year-old son - to fly into a rage at Cell and tell literally nobody his plan until Gohan was on the battlefield being utterly crushed by Cell. Subverted since it does end up working...eventually.

I do agree Goku could have handled this better, which he even got called on. Which is why it's a huge mistake even in-universe even if he was right about the rest.

  • Goku feeding Cell a senzu bean and passing the fight to Gohan took out a prime opportunity to finish him off.

Again, it's who Goku is. From his rationale it makes sense and it is one of his character flaws. However, if he doesn't do something like that - outside of it being prompted by character growth such as in Return of F after fucking up, he's not Goku.

  • And Gohan's blind rage and thirst for revenge caused Cell to become truly desperate, leading to Goku's Heroic Sacrifice. However, even with all this, the saga is still widely considered to be the Magnum Opus of the series, and at least all characters' mistakes are in line with their established flaws and characterization.

The rage & sadism explains itself, especially given what we had seen about Saiyians caught up in it.

As said, it's in line with their established flaws and characterization. It's not that the plot itself is flawed or anything, it's that the characters are flawed and combination of it catching up with them or, in Vegeta's case, it's being exploited. The plot itself isn't as bad as some make it out to be. There are some things that aren't perfect, but just because it's not perfect and people make mistakes in it doesn't mean it's flawed. I rather have character flaws catching up with characters who all have distinct personalities, with pros and cons, then bland perfection.

edited 27th Dec '15 6:31:03 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#17217: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:34:43 AM

I rather have character flaws catching up with characters who all have distinct personalities, with pros and cons, then bland perfection.
But it was the character flaws that made perfection possible.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#17218: Dec 27th 2015 at 6:45:49 AM

...Damn it, that made me smile. [lol]

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17219: Dec 27th 2015 at 7:02:08 AM

Yeah it's been Tobias Drake that criticized the Android Saga so much, though I believe it was over how much of a Retcon Dr. Gero's character was to the entire Dragon Ball world rather than any attempt at calling it an Idiot Plot.

EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#17220: Dec 27th 2015 at 8:12:35 AM

I'm rather enjoying the Android stuff going on so far.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17221: Dec 27th 2015 at 8:56:48 AM

Honestly I'd say the one real "idiot" moment from the cell saga was Goku waiting to take a sensu bean himself.

edited 27th Dec '15 9:19:41 AM by Lionheart0

EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#17222: Dec 27th 2015 at 9:02:03 AM

Will Cell eat it without hesitation?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#17223: Dec 27th 2015 at 9:28:00 AM

[up][up]Wasn't that the last one?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17224: Dec 27th 2015 at 9:59:30 AM

Nah there was still more. Right after Piccolo gives Goku his What the Hell, Hero? speech, Goku attempts to finally eat one so that he could tag back in, but then Cell steals them.

HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#17225: Dec 27th 2015 at 10:03:09 AM

"Wait, how can you be semi-perfect? You're either perfect or you're not me; there's no grey area."

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.

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