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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16576: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:16:10 PM

Kaioshin, as he is now, isn't even that weak. I have canon Kaioshin as slightly weaker than Buu Saga SS 1 Gohan. Though what I would do is power up Kaioshin about double: just slightly weaker than SS 2 Gohan.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#16577: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:17:30 PM

You have him as that, but that's not necessarily what he is.

Besides Kaioshin is like, one of the top gods.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16578: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:18:33 PM

Where do you guys think he is/where he should be?

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#16579: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:21:15 PM

Stronger than Piccolo, but a fair weaker than any of the Saiyans, barring the kids.

At least, that's what it looked like from his reactions.

Like, to me, he seemed a lot weaker than Piccolo, but I've been told otherwise.

It's just, I don't get why he was worried about opponents that the Saiyans in their base forms could Saitama if he was stronger than Piccolo, but whatever.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#16580: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:21:30 PM

If I remember correctly his official power level is 3000. As for where I would have liked him to be, tens of millions sound good. Nappa being stronger than him always struck me as underwhelming after learning how high the cosmic ladder actually goes with power levels.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#16581: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:21:50 PM

[up][up][up]Maybe around equal to or slightly weaker than Fat Buu? Dude was rolling with a crew of Gods who could supposedly pwn Freezer, and had several centuries to do nothing but train. Logically, he would have in case Buu ever got out. Having him be stronger than everyone who wasn't SSJ 3 Goku and still be weaker than Buu would better explain the level of threat they faced, and why Piccolo was scared of him.

Granted, if he was this strong, we'd probably get a scene of him pimpslapping Vegeta once he started whining about Goku being stronger than him. Again.

edited 12th Dec '15 8:22:11 PM by Guy01

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16582: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:22:56 PM

Yeah, but isn't it weird how most gods are like weaker than the average punk who worked for Freeza and then Beerus showed up and could Saitama Majin Buu if he wanted?

That's not entirely fair. Kaio-sama has a battle power of 3,500.

The average punk who worked for Frieza got their faces effortlessly wrecked by Gohan and Krillin at 1,500. Despite being noted for its exceptionally high average battle power, and ignoring the anime filler's power wankery, the strongest Namekians outside of Nail - who's received a potential unlock from Guru - were a mere 3,000; close, but still short of Kaio-sama's power.

Kaio only gets Overshadowed by Awesome because he's introduced at a point when the protagonists are ready to begin fighting the most powerful individuals in the entire universe; first surpassed by the finest warriors the deadly genocide race of Saiyans has to offer, and then those select few individuals that outshine even the Saiyans.

edited 12th Dec '15 8:23:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16583: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:24:14 PM

Kaioshin wasn't actually worried about Pui Pui/Pocus or Yakon; he suggests that everyone else team up on the former, but that's only because Vegeta was hiding his full strength and seemed like he was weaker. Gohan is the one who asks Goku if he wants help vs Yakon.

edited 12th Dec '15 8:28:09 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#16584: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:26:50 PM

[up][up][up]He got slapped around pretty good by Fat Buu, though.

[up]He was still quite worried/amazed that they were just blowing past Babidi's minions like they were nothing.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#16585: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:31:55 PM

Besides Kaioshin is like, one of the top gods.

I thought that East Supreme Kai was the weakest of the Supreme Kais before Buu killed the rest.

Like, he's one of the top gods now, by process of elimination, but.

Like, he went from sixth place to second.

...I don't count Whis as a god, Whis is a Whis.

I mean, Kaioshins thing isn't quite him being weaker than Babadi's minions, it's him freaking out because these damned mortals aren't taking things seriously enough.

It's not that he's scared of Puipui or Yakon, it's that he's surprised that, with so much at stake, these idiots are treating it like a game.

Dabura was stronger than him, but.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#16586: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:33:45 PM

Alright, that does make sense.

Still, I feel like a bit stronger than Piccolo, but weaker than any of the adult Saiyans.

Like, Cell Saga Goku/Vegeta level, maybe.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16587: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:35:36 PM

Cell Saga Goku is about where I put Buu Saga Gohan.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#16588: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:36:23 PM

I like how Korin remained stronger than Goku even after the 22nd Budoukai.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#16589: Dec 12th 2015 at 8:55:23 PM

Okay, Cell Saga Vegeta, then.

Which I kind of already said....

edited 12th Dec '15 8:55:42 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16590: Dec 12th 2015 at 9:17:09 PM

You know, even if I understand the dislike of the scene where Tien, Yamcha and Chiaoutzu fight the Ginyus, and even if I get that it confused people about Power Levels for years.....

I still like it. You know why?

Because why were they even there, if they weren't going to do anything? At least with that, they got to do more than....well nothing, since they apparently didn't learn anything on King Kai's planet.

They went all that way, and got nothing out of it. It's like the whole reason they went there was just so that Piccolo could get to Namek, and if that's the case, then the rest of them didn't even need to go at all.

At least with the Ginyu's showing up, it let them do something, and implied they actually did some training on the planet as well.

Why the hell did he even send them there? I ask again, what was the point?

Also, I didn't give much thought to Toriyama's rules for the afterlife. I guess he doesn't just make up everything on the fly.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#16591: Dec 12th 2015 at 9:20:07 PM

There's actually a lot more consistency in Dragon Ball than people think. The problem is that Toei, bad translations, and misconceptions ruined most of it.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16592: Dec 12th 2015 at 9:21:34 PM

That's true. I guess the reason I disagree with a lot of stuff is because of those misconceptions making me wish certain things that weren't done were done.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16593: Dec 12th 2015 at 10:07:26 PM

I, personally, think the reason the Humans got to go to Kaio's is because Toriyama originally intended for them to stay relevant at the time.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16594: Dec 13th 2015 at 12:50:27 AM

Yeah but the ramification on the plot aren't, which is why I find it weird that people harp on it so much.

The only reason they weren't is because Toei weren't consistent with their changes. What they actually changed should have drastically altered the plot, but they never address this which I don't think redeems it at all.

I would've preferred it if Kaio's Power Level was in the tens of millions.

Too big of a jump, personally. Although that's partly because I see no need for Freeza to even enter the tens of millions. I would have just had Kaio between the Ginyus and first form Freeza, and have Freeza not escalate as much in terms of power.

Kaioshin, as he is now, isn't even that weak. I have canon Kaioshin as slightly weaker than Buu Saga SS 1 Gohan. Though what I would do is power up Kaioshin about double: just slightly weaker than SS 2 Gohan.

I don't think that fits the series very well. Then he wouldn't defeat to Goku before knowing Goku had Super Saiyan 2, which is important, and he wouldn't be amazed by Super Saiyan 1 Gohan's power like he was.

I definitely think he's noticeably weaker than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, considering he was blown away by that power and never challenged Dabra.

I like how Korin remained stronger than Goku even after the 22nd Budoukai.

Actually, that's a mistranslation. Goku surpassed Karin before their next meeting in the Daimao arc.

Because why were they even there, if they weren't going to do anything? At least with that, they got to do more than....well nothing, since they apparently didn't learn anything on King Kai's planet.

They went all that way, and got nothing out of it. It's like the whole reason they went there was just so that Piccolo could get to Namek, and if that's the case, then the rest of them didn't even need to go at all.

I'm pretty sure the reason they went there is because there was nowhere else to go. They're dead. Toriyama hadn't even mentioned heaven at this point, it's much easier to send them all to the place Goku went before because we've already seen it. No new concepts to come up with.

Furthermore, as martial artists, that is the most logical place they would go. They'd want to train to improve themselves, not just to beat the next bad guy that comes along.

At least with the Ginyu's showing up, it let them do something, and implied they actually did some training on the planet as well.

It was outright said that they were doing training there.

But is defeating the Ginyus actually doing something? They beat the Ginyus because the Ginyus were specifically brought to the planet to be beaten by them. In-story.

They're still just as irrelevant as they are once they're brought back to life. The fact that they defeated the Ginyus didn't change anything, because it doesn't matter to the plot if they get to show off.

Why the hell did he even send them there? I ask again, what was the point?

The fact that they would go to Kaio's is such a natural sequence of events that there doesn't even need to be a point. There's probably nothing more to it than Toriyama wanted Goku to have contact with them en route to Namek to show they were all in high spirits and keep that segment a little bit lighter.

Plus, he can then use them as Combat Commentators if they're on Kaio's planet. Which he did.

So he did use their time at Kaio's for something, but it was a narrative purpose rather than a pandering one.

I, personally, think the reason the Humans got to go to Kaio's is because Toriyama originally intended for them to stay relevant at the time.

There seems to be a large disconnect between Toriyama's idea of relevant and several fans' ideas of relevant. Maybe he was still intending to use them for Worfing purposes, because this is before he discovered how effective Vegeta would be as a Worf moving forward.

Druplesnubb Editor of Posts Since: Dec, 2013
Editor of Posts
#16595: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:52:13 AM

That fight doesn't reflect on Goku very well. After training an entire year (or was it two years, I don't remember) at Kaio he's still weaker than Vegeta, yet all the other characters become stronger than the Ginyu's after just a couple of months. Some would say that the other Z fighters are way stronger than they should be, but statistically speaking it's clearly Goku who's the outlier, not them. I'm speaking solely of the anime here, of course.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:52:54 AM by Druplesnubb

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#16596: Dec 13th 2015 at 3:06:29 AM

It made logical sense. The supporting cast was always about 1 step behind Goku, maybe 2 if they were especially weak. The problem was Goku got not only 1, but 2 major powerups - Zenkai bullshit and Super Saiyan. It's pretty hard to make humans start retracing Goku's steps from there.

Because...you know. "What the f*** is Namek!"

And, to be honest, using Z-logic, having the humans beat the Ginyu's ALMOST makes sense. Because they manage to increase their power when they train with Kami, much higher than Goku's was when he left the lookout. It would be fair to assume that the humans benefitted from Kaio's training more than Goku did.

edited 13th Dec '15 3:09:33 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16597: Dec 13th 2015 at 3:41:14 AM

It would be believable after the training. Not six days into it.

[up][up] Goku got massively stronger from the training, it's just that he STARTED the training weaker than Raditz and Vegeta was enourmously powerful compared to Raditz.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#16598: Dec 13th 2015 at 4:12:06 AM

Wasn't heaven mentioned as the place Kami went to at the same time the humans and Piccolo were first shown at Kaio's place?

Also, remember, the humans got 5-10 times stronger than they were from training with Kami and Popo for one year. Goku was there for 3 years, and, well, he had already surpassed Roshi quite a while before. The usual procedure involves the humans doing the same thing Goku did, and getting better results, but then cue Goku (and Piccolo, and Vegeta, and Gohan for a short while) doing something out of the norm and skipping leages ahead.

Kaioken Tenshinhan would had been something great; really enjoyed his exposure in the Cell saga.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16599: Dec 13th 2015 at 4:22:21 AM

Goku got about 1/3rd stronger from training with Kami for 3 years while the Humans got about 9 times stronger from training with Kami for 1 year. The Humans grew 108x faster than Goku did with Kami, factoring in time and amount gained.

Goku also got 20x stronger by training with Kaio for a year. Assuming the Humans also trained for a year and had similar gains as before, they would be 2,160x stronger. Tenshinhan would go from 1,830 to 3,952,800.

edited 13th Dec '15 4:25:28 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#16600: Dec 13th 2015 at 4:31:23 AM

Hell, even factoring in that they were only there for 6 days, that's STILL a 35.5068493x increase! Tenshinhan would still go up from 1,830 to 64,977. And, as the great Captain Ginyu has informed us, 60,000-90,000 is about necessary to wreck Jeice and Burter at the same time.


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