Stronger than Piccolo, but a fair weaker than any of the Saiyans, barring the kids.
At least, that's what it looked like from his reactions.
Like, to me, he seemed a lot weaker than Piccolo, but I've been told otherwise.
It's just, I don't get why he was worried about opponents that the Saiyans in their base forms could Saitama if he was stronger than Piccolo, but whatever.
what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else![]()
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Maybe around equal to or slightly weaker than Fat Buu? Dude was rolling with a crew of Gods who could supposedly pwn Freezer, and had several centuries to do nothing but train. Logically, he would have in case Buu ever got out. Having him be stronger than everyone who wasn't SSJ 3 Goku and still be weaker than Buu would better explain the level of threat they faced, and why Piccolo was scared of him.
Granted, if he was this strong, we'd probably get a scene of him pimpslapping Vegeta once he started whining about Goku being stronger than him. Again.
edited 12th Dec '15 8:22:11 PM by Guy01
Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?That's not entirely fair. Kaio-sama has a battle power of 3,500.
The average punk who worked for Frieza got their faces effortlessly wrecked by Gohan and Krillin at 1,500. Despite being noted for its exceptionally high average battle power, and ignoring the anime filler's power wankery, the strongest Namekians outside of Nail - who's received a potential unlock from Guru - were a mere 3,000; close, but still short of Kaio-sama's power.
Kaio only gets Overshadowed by Awesome because he's introduced at a point when the protagonists are ready to begin fighting the most powerful individuals in the entire universe; first surpassed by the finest warriors the deadly genocide race of Saiyans has to offer, and then those select few individuals that outshine even the Saiyans.
edited 12th Dec '15 8:23:44 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Kaioshin wasn't actually worried about Pui Pui/Pocus or Yakon; he suggests that everyone else team up on the former, but that's only because Vegeta was hiding his full strength and seemed like he was weaker. Gohan is the one who asks Goku if he wants help vs Yakon.
edited 12th Dec '15 8:28:09 PM by PushoverMediaCritic
I thought that East Supreme Kai was the weakest of the Supreme Kais before Buu killed the rest.
Like, he's one of the top gods now, by process of elimination, but.
Like, he went from sixth place to second.
...I don't count Whis as a god, Whis is a Whis.
I mean, Kaioshins thing isn't quite him being weaker than Babadi's minions, it's him freaking out because these damned mortals aren't taking things seriously enough.
It's not that he's scared of Puipui or Yakon, it's that he's surprised that, with so much at stake, these idiots are treating it like a game.
Dabura was stronger than him, but.
I like how Korin remained stronger than Goku even after the 22nd Budoukai.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!You know, even if I understand the dislike of the scene where Tien, Yamcha and Chiaoutzu fight the Ginyus, and even if I get that it confused people about Power Levels for years.....
I still like it. You know why?
Because why were they even there, if they weren't going to do anything? At least with that, they got to do more than....well nothing, since they apparently didn't learn anything on King Kai's planet.
They went all that way, and got nothing out of it. It's like the whole reason they went there was just so that Piccolo could get to Namek, and if that's the case, then the rest of them didn't even need to go at all.
At least with the Ginyu's showing up, it let them do something, and implied they actually did some training on the planet as well.
Why the hell did he even send them there? I ask again, what was the point?
Also, I didn't give much thought to Toriyama's rules for the afterlife. I guess he doesn't just make up everything on the fly.
One Strip! One Strip!There's actually a lot more consistency in Dragon Ball than people think. The problem is that Toei, bad translations, and misconceptions ruined most of it.
Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!That's true. I guess the reason I disagree with a lot of stuff is because of those misconceptions making me wish certain things that weren't done were done.
One Strip! One Strip!The only reason they weren't is because Toei weren't consistent with their changes. What they actually changed should have drastically altered the plot, but they never address this which I don't think redeems it at all.
Too big of a jump, personally. Although that's partly because I see no need for Freeza to even enter the tens of millions. I would have just had Kaio between the Ginyus and first form Freeza, and have Freeza not escalate as much in terms of power.
I don't think that fits the series very well. Then he wouldn't defeat to Goku before knowing Goku had Super Saiyan 2, which is important, and he wouldn't be amazed by Super Saiyan 1 Gohan's power like he was.
I definitely think he's noticeably weaker than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, considering he was blown away by that power and never challenged Dabra.
Actually, that's a mistranslation. Goku surpassed Karin before their next meeting in the Daimao arc.
They went all that way, and got nothing out of it. It's like the whole reason they went there was just so that Piccolo could get to Namek, and if that's the case, then the rest of them didn't even need to go at all.
I'm pretty sure the reason they went there is because there was nowhere else to go. They're dead. Toriyama hadn't even mentioned heaven at this point, it's much easier to send them all to the place Goku went before because we've already seen it. No new concepts to come up with.
Furthermore, as martial artists, that is the most logical place they would go. They'd want to train to improve themselves, not just to beat the next bad guy that comes along.
It was outright said that they were doing training there.
But is defeating the Ginyus actually doing something? They beat the Ginyus because the Ginyus were specifically brought to the planet to be beaten by them. In-story.
They're still just as irrelevant as they are once they're brought back to life. The fact that they defeated the Ginyus didn't change anything, because it doesn't matter to the plot if they get to show off.
The fact that they would go to Kaio's is such a natural sequence of events that there doesn't even need to be a point. There's probably nothing more to it than Toriyama wanted Goku to have contact with them en route to Namek to show they were all in high spirits and keep that segment a little bit lighter.
Plus, he can then use them as Combat Commentators if they're on Kaio's planet. Which he did.
So he did use their time at Kaio's for something, but it was a narrative purpose rather than a pandering one.
There seems to be a large disconnect between Toriyama's idea of relevant and several fans' ideas of relevant. Maybe he was still intending to use them for Worfing purposes, because this is before he discovered how effective Vegeta would be as a Worf moving forward.
That fight doesn't reflect on Goku very well. After training an entire year (or was it two years, I don't remember) at Kaio he's still weaker than Vegeta, yet all the other characters become stronger than the Ginyu's after just a couple of months. Some would say that the other Z fighters are way stronger than they should be, but statistically speaking it's clearly Goku who's the outlier, not them. I'm speaking solely of the anime here, of course.
edited 13th Dec '15 2:52:54 AM by Druplesnubb
It made logical sense. The supporting cast was always about 1 step behind Goku, maybe 2 if they were especially weak. The problem was Goku got not only 1, but 2 major powerups - Zenkai bullshit and Super Saiyan. It's pretty hard to make humans start retracing Goku's steps from there.
Because...you know. "What the f*** is Namek!"
And, to be honest, using Z-logic, having the humans beat the Ginyu's ALMOST makes sense. Because they manage to increase their power when they train with Kami, much higher than Goku's was when he left the lookout. It would be fair to assume that the humans benefitted from Kaio's training more than Goku did.
edited 13th Dec '15 3:09:33 AM by LOLypop1224
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!Wasn't heaven mentioned as the place Kami went to at the same time the humans and Piccolo were first shown at Kaio's place?
Also, remember, the humans got 5-10 times stronger than they were from training with Kami and Popo for one year. Goku was there for 3 years, and, well, he had already surpassed Roshi quite a while before. The usual procedure involves the humans doing the same thing Goku did, and getting better results, but then cue Goku (and Piccolo, and Vegeta, and Gohan for a short while) doing something out of the norm and skipping leages ahead.
Kaioken Tenshinhan would had been something great; really enjoyed his exposure in the Cell saga.
Goku got about 1/3rd stronger from training with Kami for 3 years while the Humans got about 9 times stronger from training with Kami for 1 year. The Humans grew 108x faster than Goku did with Kami, factoring in time and amount gained.
Goku also got 20x stronger by training with Kaio for a year. Assuming the Humans also trained for a year and had similar gains as before, they would be 2,160x stronger. Tenshinhan would go from 1,830 to 3,952,800.
edited 13th Dec '15 4:25:28 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Kaioshin, as he is now, isn't even that weak. I have canon Kaioshin as slightly weaker than Buu Saga SS 1 Gohan. Though what I would do is power up Kaioshin about double: just slightly weaker than SS 2 Gohan.