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GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#16326: Dec 10th 2015 at 6:44:59 AM

In-universe, the original plan was for Goku to go traveling the universe with Trunks and Goten, I think.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#16327: Dec 10th 2015 at 7:30:11 AM

Yeah, I can't fault Toriyama for not having Pan go Super Saiyan in the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's much more impressive when she kicks that guy's ass than it would be if she had to fire up the x50 glow to do it. And that's her only fight because the manga ended almost immediately after it.

Toei, on the other hand, gets no such defense because they made Pan such a major character. Like, sure, okay, they could probably claim the same argument: it's more impressive without it. They could do that if she ever won any fights without it. Instead, she's the weakest of the trio by far and there's no question that it's in part because she can't become a Super Saiyan.

Like, if there was an enemy that was wrecking Super Saiyan Trunks and then Pan kicked his ass without needing to transform, that would be awesome. But it doesn't happen. Not being able to transform is just used as a sign of how weak she is.

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#16328: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:21:48 AM

[up]Why would that be awesome? Is there any particular reason Pan should have been that much stronger than Trunks? Like, I understand the point you were making but if something like that did happen it would just be another, probably major thing, people went on about how GT sucked. Along with the other "GT Trunks sucks" stuff.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16329: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:39:53 AM

It's just an example of how to justify Pan's lack of Super Saiyan form. Don't put too much stock into it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#16330: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:47:52 AM

[up] That.

The point is, Toriyama didn't have Pan transform because her only scene was cooler that way. Toei didn't have Pan transform to keep her in her position on the pecking order. Toriyama did it to show how awesome she is, Toei did it to show how helpless she is.

The point Toriyama has in his favor for not making her a Super Saiyan isn't a defense Toei can share.

edited 10th Dec '15 8:49:36 AM by TobiasDrake

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Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#16331: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:02:43 AM

Well they could just claim she couldn't go super cause her father can't due to his mystic changes and just make her actually make her not useless. But everyone seems to have ignored that point with Gohan.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16332: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:04:41 AM

GT!Gohan could have just degraded like Ro F!Gohan did, which would explain how he can become a Super Saiyan at all.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#16333: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:14:36 AM

Mystic Pan needs to unlock her potential.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#16334: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:17:46 AM

What do you think the chances of Pan going Super Saiyan in super are? And why aren't we talking about this in the main DB(Z) thread?

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#16335: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:18:10 AM

And then unleash it.

If we want to get really crazy, maybe she can unchain it and realize it, too.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16336: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:18:25 AM

Actually GT Pan could fight General Rilldo, who was stronger than Majin Buu, in base form. Base Pan is also too strong to be harmed by SS Goten.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#16338: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:32:29 AM

How well could she fight Rilldo?

I'm flashing back on a Spider-Man moment. "He's so powerful that he could fight Spider-Man!" "That doesn't mean anything. YOU could fight Spider-Man. You'd get trashed, but you could."

Like, Tien was strong enough to fight Android 17. He went down in one hit, but he still fought him.

edited 10th Dec '15 9:34:34 AM by TobiasDrake

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#16339: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:34:28 AM

Okay sorry about that, I forgot Rilldo was faking after taking Pan's sucker punch.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#16341: Dec 10th 2015 at 10:49:13 AM

Just another unfounded rumour. Which is really sad, because it's a very unfair thing to slap him with. The biggest reason Toriyama didn't have female Super Saiyans is probably because he ended the manga three chapters are introducing a female Saiyan. Toei's the one that dealt with an entire series with a female Saiyan in the focus and didn't do shit with it.

Wow. Why the hell are there so many rumours about him like that? I mean, did he not clarify a lot of his plot points and give any interviews until recently or something?

So this whole time I've been ragging on Toriyama, and it's really been Toei that's the problem. In the end, the reason he never had a female super saiyan is that he probably just never thought of it. Though it does make you wonder what things would have been like if he'd thought to have more female Half Saiyans earlier or something.

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#16342: Dec 10th 2015 at 10:52:23 AM

He clarified plenty of stuff, he just did it in Japanese. A huge portion of Dragon Ball's audience doesn't speak the language.

When the internet was young and people were willing to take any scrap of information at face value, "Toriyama said this" got passed around a lot to defend whatever position a fan had. People hadn't yet heard the greatest words of one of America's mightiest leaders.

"Never trust an unsourced quote you hear on the internet." ~Abraham Lincoln

He wasn't able to tweet that until Twitter was invented, y'see.

edited 10th Dec '15 10:55:31 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#16343: Dec 10th 2015 at 10:56:59 AM

[up]

I see. I didn't realize that stuff went untranslated for so long. How old are some of those interviews? I thought all of them (the stuff about Mr. Satan meeting Tao-pai pai, 17 and 18's real names, etc) were only stuff he came up with recently.

Also, here's a dark thought:

Dende really hates Krillin due to the latter calling him Little Green.

Shen-Long also has really hated Krillin since that time when the latter wished for a Christmas tree instead of restoring a forest, leading to Christmas Tree of Might.

Dende is gonna become the guardian of the earth, and re-create Shen-Long. Krillin is gonna try and wish to remove 18's bomb.

Is......that gonna be an issue?

At the, with both the dragon and the new owned of the dragon hating his guts, I think Krillin is gonna be up shits creek in terms of wishes.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#16344: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:01:59 AM

"YOUR WISH HAS BEEN GRANTED. The bomb has been removed. And then placed in you."

Krillin Owned: +1

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#16345: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:02:11 AM

I'm curious what they'll do there, try to make it a genuinely heartwarming moment, or do another "Goku throws Chi-Chi into space" gag. Because yeah, getting rid of 18's bomb could be twisted pretty badly.

Maybe Shenron will just drop it into Krillin's lap rather than transplant it. He'll be hurt, but then, hey, love hurts.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#16346: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:16:05 AM

Heh. That sounds about right.

I'm almost hoping that Shen-Long will get ready to do something really awful when Krillin makes his wish, only to be caught off guard when the latter goes for something totally selfless like removing the bombs from 17 and 18 and is actually impressed.

Oh sure, Krillin will probably screw it up so that he pisses off the dragon again, but it'd still be pretty good.

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#16347: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:28:20 AM

Is it really any less selfish than bringing people back to life? I mean, he's basically saying "hey, take the bomb out of the thing I want to put my Destructo Dick into." I fail to see how that's any more selfless than "bring the dead warriors back to life."

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#16348: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:38:55 AM

[up]Yeah, even 18 called him out for having selfish motives in Kai, IIRC.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
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#16349: Dec 10th 2015 at 11:41:52 AM

I thought he did that because he thought 18 and 17 were dating and unrelated?

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#16350: Dec 10th 2015 at 12:48:29 PM

Those two people that look exactly the same, totally must be dating.

That's about as close to what he said.

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