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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#14951: Nov 2nd 2015 at 11:07:16 PM

[up] Temporarily, at least.

With all the foreshadowing, we're probably going to find out when Goten was conceived. Just like with Trunks.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#14952: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:26:10 AM

Goten disappearing is what really sold it for me.

DarkDestruction Dread Pirate Captain from 'neath the underwater skies Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Dread Pirate Captain
#14954: Nov 3rd 2015 at 3:54:44 AM

I have to say, the look on Goku's face before he annihilates Super 13 is quite creepy. There's even a flash of his skull just before the final blow, which, curiously, doesn't seem to be present in the original version of the scene.

On a lighter note, here's the credits roll of Super Android 13. It's catchy indeed.

edited 3rd Nov '15 3:55:13 AM by DarkDestruction

Don't stop, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need-proceed, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#14955: Nov 3rd 2015 at 3:58:39 AM

...I wonder if Gero wanted 17 and 18 to destroy country music.

What if that was one of their secondary objectives?

Dumplin.

edited 3rd Nov '15 4:03:20 AM by unnoun

DamascaRamza (Ancient one)
#14956: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:04:17 AM

[up][up] So the skull flash isn't there, but the super angry expression is right?

DarkDestruction Dread Pirate Captain from 'neath the underwater skies Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Dread Pirate Captain
#14957: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:15:46 AM

Yes, it would appear so. Here's the original scene for comparison. I could be wrong, though.

edited 3rd Nov '15 4:16:26 AM by DarkDestruction

Don't stop, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need-proceed, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need!
DamascaRamza (Ancient one)
#14958: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:40:36 AM

No you're right, that skull flash must have been something Kaiser added in. I think part of why Dragon Ball Z Abridged is so popular is that it's so much more fast paced and doesn't drag out the fights because wow, I got so bored of watching that video pretty quickly.

That and the "HD" just looks awful and like they threw a layer of paint on it and called it a day.

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#14959: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:49:47 AM

Huh, yeah. I'd have thought it was in slow motion if it wasn't for the audio

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#14960: Nov 3rd 2015 at 4:50:27 AM

In regards to the Cell situation, the problem with the argument that Cell should have been built with 17 and 18's necessary parts already ignores so many things and just makes a bunch of assumptions.

Cell mentioned that Gero shelved the Cell project because he wasn't having success - it wasn't just that the progress was slow, at that stage it wasn't even a sure thing. The computer could continue Cell's development by adding the DNA gathered from the active spy robots, but could it add the necessary components for the Androids? That's something completely different, unlike what is shown in Super Android 13 the computer wasn't shown being able to put together machinery.

Furthermore, does Gero have the resources to create both 17 and 18 and have anything spare for Cell? The Androids he created after 18 were energy absorbing types and didn't use human bases, so neither use materials fit for Cell. Assuming Gero has infinite resources and therefore he's dumb for not using them just isn't fair.

Did Gero already have the idea for Cell when he create 17 and 18? If so, you can definitely question using the parts to create those two instead, but we don't know. Even then, Cell was abandoned anyway, and I still would say it's smarter to create those two than devote the materials to a project that has been abandoned. The fact that 17 and 18 were disobedient makes them failures, but Gero couldn't have known that from the get-go.

The biggest problem with the plans with Cell and the Androids simply rests on the fact that things did not go Gero's way. He had to shelve the Cell project, 17 and 18 wouldn't obey him, he was forced into activating them when he didn't want to, and his remote wasn't enough to keep them in-line.

The whole "absorb 17/18 thing" wouldn't have been a problem if they had obeyed him (Plan A) or he didn't need to reactive them (Plan B, Kuririn mentions Cell could absorb the deactivated Android 18 if he didn't destroy her).

There's not much reason to assume creating Cell as Perfect from scratch was even possible in his circumstances, nor the obvious solution Gero was too dumb to do.

With Super 13 it's completely different. By numbering, 13 was designed and created first, and it didn't have the completion problems Cell did. So it should have been possible to just upgrade it instead of creating 14 and 15. The movie has 13 released after them, though, so the movie suggests he was completed after them. Perhaps the upgrade ability wasn't even added until later. However, why release 14 and 15 early anyway? They've got the advantage of being completely unknown. Why even move before you're ready? Furthermore, why bother finishing 14 and 15 if Super 13 is going to be far greater than the three separate Androids? Just finish 13, upgrade him, and send him on his way. It's possible that there was a similar situation where 13 got stuck in limbo and 14/15 were rushed out, but the sequence happens too quickly in the movie for that to be believable.


On 17/18 training - I don't think it would matter much for what we see of the characters. Neither of them are going to use any decent training methods, if they even train at all. We haven't seen an interest in it from either of them, except for when 18 wanted Kuririn to get stronger for the tournament. They don't use gravity, weights or decent sparring partners - Kuririn is of no help to 18, Goku even said that Gohan would hold him back in his RoSaT training and the difference between them is much smaller than the one between Kuririn and 18. So he's useless to her, and that just leaves them with basic training if they even choose to do it.

Yeah, they can potentially get stronger from training. I don't think either of them bothered to, and I don't think it would make a huge difference if it did.

edited 3rd Nov '15 5:01:56 AM by Saiga

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#14961: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:27:04 AM

I just wish that Android 17 made more appearances in DBZ.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14962: Nov 3rd 2015 at 5:31:21 AM

I mean.

If she were to get serious about training, she and Krillin know people stronger than Krillin, so I don't see why she'd be limited to Krillin. Might be awkward to bring up the subject since she doesn't know the others very well, but she's not exactly one to be embarrassed.

I'd be amused to see her combine an increased power output with her infinite reserves.

"How long are you gonna keep firing that one beam?"
"Long enough."


Re: original Super 13: "that means he's pure. Even as a Super Saiyan."

What do you mean by that, Krillin? He needs to be pure to gather the bomb, but the bomb's already gathered.

I have a message from another time...
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14963: Nov 3rd 2015 at 6:24:50 AM

That is true.

They can spar with each other for one thing. Piccolo is stronger than both of them, and has access to places like the Hippo-Tronic slime chamber, and there's that pendulum room in the anime that can send you to different places in different times.

If they cared enough, they could even ask Goku to send them to King Kai's.

There are ways for them to train.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14964: Nov 3rd 2015 at 7:13:29 AM

They are already so far beyond being able to gain much from training under Kaio-sama.

If 17 and 18 wanted to get serious about raising their battle power, sparring with each other would probably be their best bet. It brought Goten and Trunks up to speed - although they can't get a 50x boost transformation from it, they also start out a lot higher than Goten and Trunks did, so there's that.

Point is, they certainly have the ability to become relevant. But they won't, because neither of them particularly cares about being the main character of a shonen anime. 17 wants to range some parks and 18 is perfectly happy being a wife, mother, and obscenely wealthy from her blackmail winnings off Mr. Satan.

It's a rare and fairly emotionally unstable person who dedicates their life to kicking as many asses and breaking as many faces as he possibly can in his life. What makes Goku and Vegeta good shonen protagonists is because punching other people in the face as hard as they can is their life's passion.

Other people got into the game for other reasons. Breaking faces was a means to an end. For Krillin, it was to impress women. For Yamcha, it was initially to steal money and food but became just a thing to do with his friends. For Piccolo, it was to conquer the world, a goal he no longer cares for.

But Goku's all about the fight and Vegeta's all about keeping up with Goku. Together, they're motivated to keep improving their face-breaking skills even after the point where nothing in the universe could ever hold a candle to them and even some of the gods are starting to go, "Dude, seriously, tone it down a bit, you're making me look bad."

17 and 18 are already at a very comfortable battle power. They're stronger than almost anything that exists in the entire universe and neither of them has any compelling need to be able to beat Vegeta at arm-wrestling.

edited 3rd Nov '15 7:16:05 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14965: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:04:04 AM

I always feel like these talks about battle power become circular after a while.

So when is the next episode schedule'd?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14966: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:27:18 AM

[up]

That's because they do.

[up][up]

....You know, it's stuff like what you said that lets me come to grips with how things have gone for some of the characters.

Though them being more than strong enough to deal with most enemies makes the fact that every enemy that shows up is far more powerful than who came before (the upper limit for strongest in the universe was likely Cell Level, which is what the Kaioushin's probably are, with Buu being a unique exception, Frieza only reaching beyond that when he bothers to train, and Beerus and Whis being in their own category) makes it annoying, but then I remember that canonically, only Buu actually did that. All other examples come from the movies.

Except maybe Bojack and his goons, who themselves were probably only around Cell's level (varying levels of Cell at that, as they rarely fought anyone one on one, and used the energy draining trick rather quickly most of the time).

One Strip! One Strip!
EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#14967: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:32:37 AM

It's also why that when in a fight, Goku inexplicably becomes smarter, or when preparng for a fight, he becomes smarter.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14968: Nov 3rd 2015 at 8:41:25 AM

You know, thinking on things, I'm once again reminded of how strong Cell could be.

He gets more powerful by absorbing people, which allowed him to go from weaker than Super Namek Piccolo to far more powerful than him and Android 17 (who Piccolo was equal with) in his base imperfect form.

Were we ever told that the amount of power he gained from that was the upper limit on how strong his imperfect form could be? Cause if not, then he's got frightening potential even before he absorbs the Androids. And that's not even counting potential Zenkais in all forms.

Not just him too. Frieza was told by his father to stay away from Buu, but if he'd bothered to train, that warning would have been irrelevant. And if he'd known how to train right, who knows how terrifying he could have been.

And finally Buu himself. The strongest being in the series before he started absorbing stronger characters like Super Saiyans, Super Namekians, and Gods, and his crazy ass body means he can take a shit load of punishment, meaining that unless you are a lot more powerful than him, he can last long enough to absorb you (or later on, turn you to fucking Candy).

.....I kinda lost my train of thought, but basically,........no, still lost my point.

Wait! Got it! Back to Cell, he's frightening. And it's possible that he has no set power level due to his ability to absorb people.

One Strip! One Strip!
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#14969: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:25:18 PM

[up][up]"Smartness" is not actually a single attribute. Despite what IQ tests may lead one to believe, you can measure uniformity how "smart" you are.

The reason Goku is smart only during fights, or preparing for fights, is because that is literally the thing he have been doing his whole life. That is his life passion. He trained for that, he experience that. As a result, he is good at that. Nothing weird there.

EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#14970: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:28:45 PM

That's true. I meant Goku just seems like less of a idiot hero in a fight.

Probably should have said that.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14971: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:50:54 PM

Goku isn't "stupid" in the sense that we use it in, he's just horribly ignorant of earth social customs because, well he's a fucking alien. A sheltered Alien at that. This is in addition to race biologically inclined to just fight and get stronger.

The reason Goku seems "smarter" when it comes to fighting because it's literally his basic instincts kicking in.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#14972: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:53:20 PM

It's less that he's an alien and more that he spent all of his formative years as detached from society as humanly possible and training to punch people in the face.

My various fanfics.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#14973: Nov 3rd 2015 at 12:53:43 PM

Regarding 13 needing to cannibalize parts from 14 and 15, it's possible that Gero('s computer) didn't deliberately build him to do that, he developed that directive on his own with what little free will he seems to have. As for why that causes him to turn blue and cop Vegeta's hairstyle, I dunno.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013

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