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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#14926: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:19:31 PM

If my memory serves me right, numbers 1-7 and 9-12 were all scraped.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#14927: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:29:34 PM

Didn't Chris Sabat also voice Van Helsing in HUA?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14929: Nov 2nd 2015 at 5:50:44 PM

The same could really have been said for Cell in regards to creating 17 and 18. The Android Saga really wasn't planned out in advance.

Late to the Party on this, but lets be honest: nothing in DBZ was planned out in advance.

You know, knowing that Toriyama continually changed the story out of respect to an editor who he wasn't even working for at the time actually makes the whole thing frustrating.

I mean, yeah, having respect for an old employer is one thing, but continually ass pulling new plot twists just because this guy doesn't like things....makes your story a damned mess.

And since we're beating that old horse again, I'll be my one track minded self and again point out that one thing was planned in Dragon Ball: Gohan taking Goku's place.....until Toriyama changed his mind.

The one thing he actually bothered to build up, and he tossed it out the window.

Spec-fucking-tacular.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#14930: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:08:35 PM

And yet we still love it and it's arguably the most successful anime franchise ever.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#14931: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:09:43 PM

To be fair: 17 and 18 are better than 19 and 20 and Cell is better than those two so it all worked out for the best.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14932: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:19:22 PM

[up][up]and[up]

Touche.

I still have issue with him tossing certain characters under the bus (but still keeping them around).

But beyond that, if I didn't still enjoy it, I wouldn't be here.

.....Now if only I could actually get back to watching Super.

One Strip! One Strip!
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#14933: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:25:48 PM

So how do you guys think the story would have played out if 19 and 20 were the big threats Toriyama had originally planned them to be?

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14934: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:33:07 PM

No way of knowing, though I wonder if he would have introduced 17 and 18 later on anyway as a sign of how bad the timeline had diverged.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#14935: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:35:40 PM

19 and 20 were originally intended to be the Androids that destroyed Trunks' timeline.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14936: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:47:44 PM

....

Yeah. Now that I calm down and think about it, I'm glad he changed it.

Though maybe he should have considered having more than two androids from the start.....though I guess that would have meant Trunks was totally boned.

Oh wait. Since Gero was already retconned into being part of the Red Ribbon army, why not just revealed he used his scientific genius to revive the whole damned thing, with a buttload of Androids of different models?

Cell worked out, but it would have been interesting if they were dealing with an entire army of Androids of different types and abilities.

Or at least I think so.

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#14937: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:48:12 PM

Well the fight would probably have been dragged on forever, since 19 and 20 would have to have been much more powerful than they ended up being, plus Trunks wouldn't have showed back up and developed his relationship with Vegeta, Goku might have died permanently if his heart ailment killed him off, and Krillin and 18 would never have hooked up, plus Tien wouldn't have gotten his badass moment of holding off Cell.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#14938: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:52:13 PM

At what point in the storyline was Toriyama at when he changed his mind about 19 and 20? Because the good guys ran into them pretty fast and they didn't have any transformations, so that would have made a fairly short arc. There were a bunch of baddies to kill in the Freeza saga, plus Freeza himself had a bunch of forms, there were more baddies in the Buu arc and Buu himself had a ton of forms, but if Toriyama had planned for 19 and 20 to be the big bads of that Saga I don't see how he would have made the arc last for any length of time.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#14939: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:56:46 PM

If 19 and 20 were the actual Big Bad's, the initial encounter probably would have gone entirely different so as to not show their hand so soon.

Also, since it was just the two of them and they probably wouldn't scores of have minions like Freeza (since Trunks specifically said there were two of them), he probably would've had Gero have multiple cyborg bodies or something to lengthen the plot in the same way Buu's many forms give the Buu Saga its longevity.

edited 2nd Nov '15 6:57:17 PM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#14940: Nov 2nd 2015 at 6:57:43 PM

Right after they impaled Yamcha.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14941: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:02:23 PM

Gero going all Meta-Cooler with a mass-produced army of bodies he uploaded his brain to would be kinda cool.

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#14942: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:06:10 PM

It would have been kinda funny if the great threat that nobody is strong enough to defeat is... an old man and a fat mime thing.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14943: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:09:04 PM

Ooh, and then Gero goes all 13 and absorbs the parts of his broken him-army to become a super powerful cyborg with 500 ki batteries running at full blast.

I have a message from another time...
EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#14944: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:20:39 PM

I wonder if the infinite energy source is why 17 and 18 didn't just respond to Gero. I mean when you have all the power you need, why listen to someone who doesn't.

Maybe that's why 19 had to absorb power.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14945: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:28:18 PM

I think it's because they're cyborgs rather than androids. That pesky human brain and its troublesome free will.

I have a message from another time...
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#14946: Nov 2nd 2015 at 8:46:35 PM

If better implemented, the absorption bit actually might've been a better idea against Gok, I can understand the idea. While 17 and 18's power sources are infinite, the same cannot be said about their power levels: they have limits (albeit limits that were high at the time) which can be passed just like any other opponent.

Presumably, a well designed power absorber could use their opponent's power to become even more powerful than them and make up any discrepancy in strength. The issue is that 19 and Gero were so weak otherwise that taking them apart even while having their energy absorbed was cake for the heroes.

Terrible as GT is, Super 17 shows how effective a concept the energy absorption capability could have been on a character meant to be the most powerful threat the heroes had faced so far: should Toriyama have gone through with the idea of Gero and 19 being the actual main villains of the arc, we might've seen something like that.

For example, as apposed to the rate of absorption being so ineffective that Vegeta could break 19's arms and let loose a finishing move afterwards (granted, I believe he did require a senzu afterwards), in a hypothetical universe where 19 and 20 were written as the true Big Bads 19's might've gotten a power-up (or even a transformation) that would've caused the heroes to retreat or regroup a la 18 defeating Vegeta.

edited 2nd Nov '15 8:52:06 PM by KnownUnknown

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#14947: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:50:15 PM

Of course, the real question would have been what happened if Toriyama had made 19 and 20 as powerful as Super Saiyans from the start.

And, I mean...his former editor advised Toriyama to change the villains because he thought 19 and 20's designs were stupid. Not because he didn't like the concept of energy absorption, and all that.

It makes you wonder if he was still listening to him by Buu. Because if Torishima thought 19, 20, 17 and 18 were stupid designs for villains, I doubt he'd like Buu.

Although this is the same guy who said DB should have ended after Freeza, so the answer is probably no.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#14948: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:50:24 PM

Yo that nut cracking destroyed my sides, holy shit.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14949: Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:56:30 PM

Goku got punched right in the Gotens.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#14950: Nov 2nd 2015 at 10:00:00 PM

And Goten got punched out of canon.


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