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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#14501: Sep 28th 2015 at 7:00:00 PM

Wait, wasn't Guldo about to kill the heroes with a super sharpened tree before he got ganked? Perhaps he really should have thought to bring several knives instead.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14502: Sep 28th 2015 at 8:12:33 PM

Yeah, in that scenario, having your own weapon is more practical than improvising one.

I imagine a combo of Time Freeze —> Paralysis —> Stab would handle quite a few opponents.

That said, Vegeta would've killed his ass either way. Gotta make sure you've incapacitated all your enemies.

edited 28th Sep '15 8:13:16 PM by Enlong

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#14503: Sep 29th 2015 at 7:29:19 AM

I don't think it's as great as it might sound. Guldo has a very different way of using his battle power but battle power is still a factor. Again: weapons as an extension of one's own power.

In a Western work, being able to freeze time and just shove knives in everyone's throat before they wake up would be an incredibly powerful ability, but in anime, Guldo's knife would break before Goku's skin. He's still limited by the fact that he can only do it effectively against foes he's powerful enough to shank.

edited 29th Sep '15 7:30:20 AM by TobiasDrake

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#14504: Sep 29th 2015 at 7:36:27 AM

So it's pretty much just good for running away.

Though that paralysis ability is effective.

edited 29th Sep '15 7:38:31 AM by randomness4

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#14505: Sep 29th 2015 at 7:38:12 AM

[up][up]It's not a matter of east vs west.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14506: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:09:21 AM

Yeah. I doubt a tree would be much of a problem to Krillin or even Gohan if they could move or muster any of their energy.

Which is why you use time freeze to land a paralysis, and then go in for the kill.

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EchoingSilence Since: Jun, 2013
#14507: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:21:22 AM

Hell it doesn't matter how strong you are in Jojo, which Guldo references with ZAWURDO! A Knife is still a knife and you could die from it.

Though Krillin is made of iron to survive the Butt-Monkey antics, Gohan is part sayian and his father has survived Bullets at point blank because Sayians being an entire race of warriors need to be durable to keep fighting.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#14508: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:39:49 AM

If they were strong enough to resist the tree, they wouldn't even need to move. Goku's blocked punches with his face a few times. Paralyzing them just prevents them from dodging it, guaranteeing Guldo the hit, but Guldo still needs to be powerful enough to drive the tree through them.

Which he is. Krillin is around 13,000 at this point in time while Gohan is about 14,000. Guldo, meanwhile, is in the general area of 40,000. His paralysis is so effective against Gohan and Krillin because he's roughly 3x their strength.

By contrast, Chiaotzu has a similar ability to paralyze people with his telekinesis, but it failed miserably against Nappa because Nappa was so much more powerful than him.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:40:37 AM by TobiasDrake

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#14509: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:54:38 AM

Um, Guldo was not around 40,000. He was very noticeably weaker than the others. If he was around 40,000 he wouldn't have had to resort to the paralysis in the first place.

Which brings me to my main point, this whole eastern ideal at the very least didn't apply in this situation because Guldo was clearly shown to be weaker than them and yet that attack was treated as if it would have actually killed Krillin by everyone involved.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:59:10 AM by LSBK

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#14510: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:08:04 AM

Yeah, Guldo is actually a good example of a weaker character almost beating two stronger characters using special abilities (as is Chioutzu, who only lost to Krillin because he sucked at math). Directly contradicting what people say about Dragon Ball.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14511: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:38:39 AM

It's pretty rare though.

But yeah, I agree that Guuldo must have been weaker. As much as Toriyama asspulls a lot of stuff, if Guuldo's paralysis and the attack he was about to do weren't a threat, then there would have been no reason to treat it as a threat....

It is on occasion possible for weaker characters to defeat stronger ones in the right circumstances.

Re-call that Goku would have won his fight with Perfect Cell through an ingenious combination of Instant Transmission and point black Kamehameha despite being a lot weaker if not for Cell being able to regenerate even his upper torso.

I feel like, in quite a few series, that would have been a game ender, and a great in your face moment to Power Levels are everything.

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#14512: Sep 29th 2015 at 10:19:59 AM

Also, Piccolo and Goku beat Raditz using a Full Nelsen and a Makankosappo, if that counts.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#14513: Sep 29th 2015 at 10:22:20 AM

An injured Raditz.

Who was hurt when Gohan got mad and had a higher power than him, even if only for a moment.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#14514: Sep 29th 2015 at 10:39:31 AM

Also, the Makankousappou had a power level that exceeded Raditz's. As for Goku's Full-Nelson, you've got me there.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#14515: Sep 29th 2015 at 11:24:26 AM

Guldo is pretty much the last time in the series technique trumps power and even so it's rather half-hearted (regardless of power level, their role in that part of the arc required being in danger from everyone). It doesn't so much as contradict the idea as much as be one final exception before being largely dropped.

Dragonball's balance of it was far more in the opposite direction, and the idea that a battle was hopeless or had to be a curbstomp simply because an enemy was stronger was not as much in place. The stories directly after Dragonball still held onto that to some extent - you could arguably call the little remnants of that in Z before the genre shifted entirely Early-Installment Weirdness or Toriyama still not having entirely switched over his philosophy in writing the series yet.

edited 29th Sep '15 11:28:20 AM by KnownUnknown

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#14516: Sep 29th 2015 at 11:37:45 AM

I don't know; I don't really remember many examples of someone weaker beating someone stronger aside from Goku beating the Pirate Robot and (debatably) Goku's victory over King Piccolo.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#14517: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:01:43 PM

Guldo is pretty much the last time in the series technique trumps power

Well, not exactly. Trunks was supposed to be stronger than Perfect Cell, but lacked speed (or something creative to make up for the lost speed).

I would also argue that Buu's absorption is a case of a weaker enemy overcoming a stronger one through a technique.

edited 29th Sep '15 12:02:37 PM by JonnasN

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
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#14518: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:03:31 PM

edited 29th Sep '15 12:03:58 PM by SonOfSharknado

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#14519: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:26:02 PM

[up][up]Trunks in that form was stronger than Cell not powered up but it didn't matter because he couldn't hit him.

Later on Cell does the exact same thing as Trunks and suffice it to say, his power easily surpasses Trunks'.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#14520: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:46:57 PM

[up]The point is, Truks couldn't defeat Cell despite having superior power. Sure, Cell eventually showed he could use the same technique, but, at that momment, Trunks>Cell and, yet, Trunks lost.

edited 29th Sep '15 12:47:12 PM by Heatth

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#14521: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:08:02 PM

I don't know; I don't really remember many examples of someone weaker beating someone stronger aside from Goku beating the Pirate Robot and (debatably) Goku's victory over King Piccolo.

It's not just about who wins, it's about how the fights progress. DBZ has it as a basic rule that if you're stronger than someone, you will curbstomp them - and no amount of technique the other uses will have any effect: like what Tobias is saying with weapons, in DBZ it boils down to how powerful a fighter is first and foremost, largely because the characters are dealing with scales of power so high that being more powerful means being overpowered in comparison.

Dragonball was known to do the same thing (like with Tao's introduction, for one), but not with as much frequency - and it's still more varied in the nature of its fights and the nature of the abilities various characters possess. It's a bit more of a martial arts series than a superpowers series.

However, Trunks is a good example of a character not necessarily winning because they're more powerful that I did forget about (though it was less technique on Cell's part and more an inherent weakness in Trunks' power-up), but the fact that it's an exception says a lot about how rare that sort of thing is in Z. The series typically goes for Lightning Bruiser instead of making a distinction between that and a (comparative) Mighty Glacier, and Trunks' loss against Cell is one of the few times speed isn't entirely a function of overall battle power.

edited 29th Sep '15 1:14:44 PM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#14522: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:16:23 PM

[up][up]Considering Trunks only had more power because Cell wasn't even really trying, I don't think it counts. He could have very easily flipped the situation if he felt like it.

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#14523: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:39:37 PM

That doesn't explain how the hell roided up Broly is able to move so fast. evil grin

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#14524: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:42:35 PM

He has enough power to move those gigantic muscles as fast as he pleases.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#14525: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:49:12 PM

Trunks and Broly weren't in the same form?

So, that clip that was just put up, the music wasn't actually in the episode was it? But then again, if it was added by the user, that's just another sign of the Dork Age of the internet.


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