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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#12876: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:18:48 PM

Super 17 is a GT character. He was created by flagrantly disregarding established mechanics, being derived from the version of the afterlife that is unique to Z's copious filler and openly contradicts what the story actually establishes. Even ROF didn't have villains running free in Hell doing whatever they wanted.

He is as much evidence of infinite energy and energy absorption comboing well as the Garlic Jr. Saga is evidence of Broly existing.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:19:33 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#12877: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:19:51 PM

[up][up]Remember Abridged!Krillin's thoughts on the fact that they can fly and shoot lasers?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#12878: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:21:05 PM

[up][up]I'm aware of what he is. But we were discussing what it would be like to combine the two models, and I provided a semi-official example of what the result could be.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#12879: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:23:18 PM

I find the idea that Marron isn't the slightest bit interested in martial arts kind of ridiculous to be honest.

Whether she'd still be interested as she grows up is one thing. Whether she'd want to compete is one thing. But if you're a kid and you know people that can fly and shoot lasers you would want to too. There's no real question about that to be honest.

If only because you'd want to reach things on high shelves without having to ask for help. That sort of independence is important to kids.

...And she seems to know Gohan in the Buu Saga, so it's not like there's no contact with the Son family. If she saw Goten or Trunks doing cool things that's even more of an impetus.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:32:59 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#12880: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:44:47 PM

You make good point.

A little kid seeing all those people flying around and shooting lasers, and she doesn't want in on that?

I mean, unless 18 pulled a Chi and didn't want her to train or something.

Anyone got any ideas on the matter. Not everyone needs to decide to fight, but it's kinda weird.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#12881: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:46:40 PM

I don't see how "Anime afterlife is different from Manga afterlife" has anything to do with those power systems not working well together?

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#12882: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:47:27 PM

I actually kinda think it might have been Krillin's idea not to get Marron involved in Martial Arts.

On the one hand, yes, super powers. But Krillin has also seen his friends die, seen monsters that destroy entire cities and commit genocide on entire planets, and has died twice himself. It's perfectly reasonable for a father not want that kind of life for his child.

My various fanfics.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#12883: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:50:56 PM

I don't see how "Anime afterlife is different from Manga afterlife" has anything to do with those power systems not working well together?

Because a character who cannot even exist with contradicting established continuity is evidence of nothing. Super 17 isn't an infinite energy model with energy absorption nodes. He's a Continuity Snarl and nothing he says or does is a credible example of anything that came before him.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:52:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#12884: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:52:37 PM

I like the solution Gohan came up with in the backstory for Online. I adore it, frankly.

I adore the idea that he and Pan made it so that more people know how to use ki. So that practically anyone and everyone can.

...I mean, the stuff about the Telecommunicated Satan-style Martial Arts Course is weird and I don't understand how exactly it's supposed to work, but.

Well, okay, how it was originally supposed to work was as a scam until Pan took over. And somehow got Bulma's help to make it so people could train together online (?)

Anyway. Between Gohan's book and Pan's enthusiasm and popularity and with Capsule Corp. tech, everyone in the world can fly and shoot lasers. Basically.

And then the Namekians and people from Yardrat had to move to Earth because of reasons, and Mr. Buu made a family and they ended up reproducing a lot and.

Anyway, fucking with Earth seems really really hard in the year 1000.

I actually kinda think it might have been Krillin's idea not to get Marron involved in Martial Arts.

On the one hand, yes, super powers. But Krillin has also seen his friends die, seen monsters that destroy entire cities and commit genocide on entire planets, and has died twice himself. It's perfectly reasonable for a father not want that kind of life for his child.

I would think that's all the more reason to teach self-defense personally.

I mean, if Krillin couldn't fly? If he didn't know the solar flare or Kienzan? He would not have lasted on Namek for as long as he did.

And besides that, there are very human and ordinary threats out there. And Roshi should probably be considered one of them.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:56:51 PM by unnoun

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#12885: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:58:19 PM

I know if I had a daughter, I'd want them to know how to fly and self-defend.

Same with sons.

[up]See the last line of that post.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:58:42 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#12886: Jul 7th 2015 at 12:59:01 PM

[up][up][up]That's a rather absolute way of looking at it.

edited 7th Jul '15 12:59:11 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#12887: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:01:09 PM

Because a character who cannot even exist with contradicting established continuity is evidence of nothing. Super 17 isn't an infinite energy model with energy absorption nodes. He's a Continuity Snarl and nothing he says or does is a credible example of anything that came before him.

I mean, no one is going to deny that GT is dumb as hell, but all the constant "you aren't allowed to use anime only things in discussions" talk is bar none the most annoying thing about this thread.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#12888: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:13:48 PM

It's GT. While anime filler has featured some enjoyable sequences, trying to reconcile things that explicitly contradict established continuity during discussions of how Dragon Ball's mechanics and concepts work is an exercise in futility. Nowhere is this more true than GT.

If you want to talk about whether Frieza and Cell being Bash Brothers in Hell was a cool concept or stupid, then YMMV on the answer, but if you want to talk about how it relates to the afterlife mechanics of Dragon Ball, the answer is that it doesn't because it never happened.

In mechanical discussions, things that only exist in movies, GT, and filler have no bearing on the mechanics of Dragon Ball because they only exist in movies, GT, and filler. Like the Garlic Jr. Saga or don't, but there's no point debating the effects the Makyo Star has on Cell or Buu because it doesn't exist outside the Garlic Jr. Saga.

Broly isn't the Legendary Super Saiyan that Vegeta was talking about, the Dragon Balls don't emit black smoke and then summon an evil dragon if you make too many wishes, the Fruit of the Tree of Might is not a threat to Frieza and never was, etc.

edited 7th Jul '15 1:16:52 PM by TobiasDrake

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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#12889: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:14:47 PM

Whether she'd still be interested as she grows up is one thing. Whether she'd want to compete is one thing. But if you're a kid and you know people that can fly and shoot lasers you would want to too. There's no real question about that to be honest.

The thing is, for a regular humannote , flying and shooting lasers is hard. Kuririn spent all his childhood and teenage years training before being about to do that. Every other human character we know went through similar training. Even if Marron would totally love to be able to fly and stuff, she might simply not have the patience and desire to spend years of her life trying to achieve that.

I mean, no one is going to deny that GT is dumb as hell, but all the constant "you aren't allowed to use anime only things in discussions" talk is bar none the most annoying thing about this thread.

The problem is that a lot of the anime is contradictory. Garlic Jr. Saga, for example, is based on a movie that simply can't have happened within the chronology (even the anime chronology). If the anime exclusive ars are so prone to contradicting themselves, it is kinda hard to use them in a "serious" discussionnote .

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#12890: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:22:56 PM

It's true that a lot of it is contradictory, but you're saying that we're not allowed to use things in conversations because things they are related to are contradictory even though there isn't anything inherently contradictory about the parts we are actually talking about. That's a bad way to go about things.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#12891: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:29:24 PM

It's about the same as saying that the mechanics of MCU Iron Man's suit have little bearing on the way 616 Iron Man's suit functions. GT isn't even anime filler; it has as much to do with Dragon Ball as the movies do. As such, Super 17's mechanics have as much to do with the way the Androids work as Broly has with Super Saiyans.

I'm hesitant to use the term "non-canon," but Super 17 is as canon as Super 13.

edited 7th Jul '15 1:30:25 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#12892: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:31:33 PM

Please don't insult the movies like that.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#12893: Jul 7th 2015 at 1:39:22 PM

I don't see what it being canon or not has to do with anything. And bad example because GT is ostensibly a sequel to the anime, unlike different Iron Man media.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#12894: Jul 7th 2015 at 3:43:06 PM

And now you guys have made me think of a Crystal Tokyo-esque future where everyone knows ki and the Z-Fighters are hailed as pioneers and it's all utopian and stuff.

It's a pity DB operates on Multiverse Theory. They can never see that future.

edited 7th Jul '15 3:44:21 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#12895: Jul 7th 2015 at 4:50:24 PM

Not with that attitude!

I have a message from another time...
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#12897: Jul 7th 2015 at 10:21:15 PM

Jeez. We were having a discussion about what a infinite energy/absorption combo model would be like, and I pointed out Super 17 as an example of what that COULD be like.

Yes, GT sucks. Yes, it contradicts canon. But you can't just deny it as a theoretical example simply because you don't like it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#12898: Jul 8th 2015 at 1:53:41 AM

Why Gero wasn't a perpetual energy model was directly addressed in the manga.

Android 17 says "oh, you relied on the old energy absorption model. Was that because the infinite energy model was too much to control?" talking about Gero himself so obviously it's not just personality flaws at play here.

Yes, Gero is the Android, but he's still a brain controlling a robot body. It's outright said an infinite energy model would be difficult for him to control in that state.

[up] Welcome to how Tobias treats anything with the Androids.

edited 8th Jul '15 1:54:33 AM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#12899: Jul 8th 2015 at 8:00:46 AM

That state is by choice. Gero is a brain controlling a robot body because that's the design he decided on. If perpetual energy is difficult to control in that state, then he should put himself in the same state as 17 and 18. They aren't brains controlling robot bodies, and they don't seem to have any difficulty controlling their infinite energy generators.

17 and 18 are unruly and don't follow orders, but we've never seen any indication that they are unable to control their powers. At no point did their generators malfunction and they exploded and died or something. They are a proof of concept because they exist, and no amount of extrapolation from dialogue changes the fact that 17 and 18 exist.

edited 8th Jul '15 8:01:59 AM by TobiasDrake

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#12900: Jul 8th 2015 at 8:04:07 AM

I'm just rolling with the Gero is dumb thing.

Oh really when?

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