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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#11001: Apr 15th 2015 at 7:20:35 AM

[up][up] Yeah, but when they got to Kaioshin's world, he offered them his, and Vegeta was all, "Screw you, that's not how SAIYANS do things!" and Goku was all, "Sorry, Vegeta's right, your way sucks!"

Between not saving Gohan and destroying the Potara, Goku and Vegeta went out of their way to make the final battle with Pure Buu as difficult for themselves as they could.

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#11002: Apr 15th 2015 at 8:12:12 AM

Pretty much since Vegito was a literal Story-Breaker Power, Toriyama had to come up with a contrived reason why they wouldn't fuse again.

Honestly I think, story-wise, it would have made since not to have the Poturo fusion, and just have Goku and Vegeta do the fusion dance. Because them defusing when they got absorbed by Buu was a total Ass Pull.

edited 15th Apr '15 10:18:52 AM by Lionheart0

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#11003: Apr 15th 2015 at 8:14:34 AM

An added bonus of never introducing the Potara would be that Kaioshin remains in his sleek, cool form and not his uncharacteristically bulky, uncomfortable Kibitokai form.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#11004: Apr 15th 2015 at 8:23:24 AM

Kibito also doesn't cease to be a thing.

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#11005: Apr 15th 2015 at 9:16:56 AM

If I recall, isn't the sole reason Potara fusion exists (and the extremely clunky reason it got dissolved and why they didn't want to do it again) is because the Fusion Reborn movie beat Toriyama to the punch on having Goku and Vegeta fuse via fusion dance?

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#11006: Apr 15th 2015 at 9:33:37 AM

I never heard that rumor before.

edited 15th Apr '15 10:15:53 AM by VeryMelon

Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#11007: Apr 15th 2015 at 10:10:18 AM

Huh. Dunno where I heard it either.

I always thought the Potara fusion and its resolution was really clunky and last minute (then again, so are a lot of things in Dragon Ball), so I guess it makes sense to me.

I mean, if they fuse via Fusion Dance, then after Buu transforms, they wouldn't have the time to do it again (since I doubt Kid Buu would stand around and let them dance) Natural fit, no need for Goku or Vegeta to act like smug idiots.

Shrug.

edited 15th Apr '15 10:10:32 AM by Otherarrow

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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#11008: Apr 15th 2015 at 10:22:22 AM

The fact that they defused does give credence to the idea that Gogeta was meant to be the fusion, but Toriyama gets accredited to so many things it's hard to say.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#11009: Apr 15th 2015 at 11:43:22 AM

You know, with all the complaining we do, you'd think we hate Dragon Ball.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#11010: Apr 15th 2015 at 11:48:23 AM

I've never understood that sort of thinking.

It sounds like the sort of thing only people who've never had friends or family or ever felt the need to participate in public discourse would say.

People who don't understand what hatred is.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#11011: Apr 15th 2015 at 11:48:26 AM

The biggest fans of anything are the ones who complain the most.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#11012: Apr 15th 2015 at 11:58:04 AM

I've only really lived in America since the turn of the millennium but there's a thing called Thanksgiving dinner. And before then I had Passover and Sukkot and other occasions where I would see some of my extended family and complaining was an established part of bonding.

I'm not going to say that all criticism is born of love, because I know the things I've said about GT and I meant every single fucking one of them, and because my actual nuclear family wasn't very loving (although calling the activities that went on "criticism" shows a very distinct misunderstanding of the term), but the idea that all complaint and all criticism, and that any criticism that is perceived as excessive must be born out of some loathing is. Asinine.

Hate is too powerful an emotion to waste on something you don't like very much.

edited 15th Apr '15 12:03:09 PM by unnoun

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#11013: Apr 15th 2015 at 11:58:13 AM

[up][up][up] well that just sounds needlessly hostile

edited 15th Apr '15 11:58:32 AM by Enlong

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#11014: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:01:59 PM

I find every post that says anything along the lines of "how can you like x if you complain about it so much" or "you must hate x a lot for all the stuff that's wrong with it" to be needlessly hostile.

It's been part of my experience in fandom for too long and I'm frankly sick of it.

edited 15th Apr '15 12:02:41 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#11015: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:03:32 PM

I know that no one here hates Dragon Ball because we wouldn't be here if we did.

I was just pointing out how a lot of discussions revolve around the things wrong with Dragon Ball or Power Levels rather than what we love about it or some such.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#11016: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:05:47 PM

I know that you know that.

Sorry.

...I do really hate power levels and think their introduction was the worst thing and was so glad when the series stopped talking about them so much finally after Frieza. Thank Kami for that.

Still can't say I hate the series itself for that. Just certain segments of the fandom.

edited 15th Apr '15 12:11:51 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#11017: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:22:05 PM

Unfortunately, battle powers never really left. They just became more poorly defined.

There's still a pretty clear Tiered Structure in the Buu Saga, for instance, between Goku, Vegeta, regular Gohan, Ultimate Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Fat Buu, Super Buu, Pure Buu, Gotenks, Vegetto, Dabura, Kibito, Kaioshin, and Kibitokai.

Battles between any combination of these characters are still heavily influenced by which fighter is more powerful than the other, just as much as they were on Namek. The power gaps are all still there. However, with the physical readouts no longer being present in the series, the full extent of those gaps is much more difficult to identify.

We know exactly how strong Krillin was when he left Namek and how he sizes up to Piccolo, Goku, and Frieza. We have no idea what the actual difference between Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan is. We can just make educated guesses based on how they both fared against different forms of Majin Buu, which also require educated guesses to determine which form of Majin Buu was how strong at any given time.

edited 15th Apr '15 12:25:48 PM by TobiasDrake

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Otherarrow Since: Jul, 2010
#11018: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:26:33 PM

If I recall, they dropped exact numbers after Freeza, but they didn't drop the general gist of the thing. When you introduce a guy who can effortlessly drop Freeza, then have two guys who can make short work of HIM, then have a guy who's final form makes them look like a cakewalk, then have a guy who is around the level of the previous guy and is in turn effortlessly stomped by the weakest form of the new villain...

The problem is still there, is what I'm saying, they just stopped drawing direct attention to it. In other words, how is "this guy has a power level of X, therefore..." different from "this guy is about as strong as X, therefore..."?

As Vegeta in the show which this is a thread for once said: Power levels are bullshit.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

edited 15th Apr '15 12:26:51 PM by Otherarrow

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#11019: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:47:37 PM

Without the numbers I can at least try to ignore it better.

Dragon_Ranger Since: Jan, 2010
#11020: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:56:25 PM

Speaking of power, has it been stated at all how powerful Super Saiyan God is?

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#11021: Apr 15th 2015 at 12:58:56 PM

I think there was a statement made by Toryama that on a scale of 1 to 10, Super Saiyan God was a 6, Beerus was a 10 and Whis was a 15.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#11022: Apr 15th 2015 at 1:02:37 PM

So about 60% Beerus's strength.

Figure out where Beerus is and that will be useful knowledge.

Also, it tells us nothing about the value of the multiplier, since he didn't tell us where Base Goku is on that scale.

edited 15th Apr '15 1:03:17 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#11023: Apr 15th 2015 at 1:02:53 PM

on the whole Potara thing,while rereading the manga,i noticed that Elder Kai said that it fuses them once.Obviously, he was referring to the permanent fusion deal,but making it a one time deal would probably solve the SAIYAN PRIDE problem.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#11024: Apr 15th 2015 at 1:04:03 PM

Say what you will about the Potaras but Vegeto vs Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed) is my all-time favorite fight in the series.

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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#11025: Apr 15th 2015 at 2:49:09 PM

No series is perfect. We may complain about it, but part of the time that's also why we love it so much. It's great that Goku and Vegeta acted like idiots during the final battle. It showed these characters are flawed. We have too many 'perfect hero' protagonists as it is.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!

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