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JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9826: Mar 2nd 2015 at 5:41:05 AM

Just a quick note about Bra in GT... she's not supposed to be 9, she's supposed to be older than Pan by a few years, so yeah, teenager sounds about right.

Also, they did the same with Goten, who seems to be a teen/young man with an active social life, and whine when Goku or Vegeta want him to train more. Or rather, Toriyama did it in the last few chapters. Trunks and Gohan also dedicated way more time to being productive members of society than training. Just saying, it's not exactly a problem with Bra, she's exactly what I would expect Bulma's daughter to be like.

That said, Pan being sidelined was just mindboggling, as she was an active presence in every saga. Uub was even worse, as he was sidelined AND lacked the same presence. Adult Gotenks not appearing was the same thing. The GT/filler writers just tend to forget that a varied cast is part of Dragon Ball's charm.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#9827: Mar 2nd 2015 at 5:48:25 AM

I mean, Bulma was a super-genius that made a device to find ancient magical artifacts when she was like 14. I'd personally expect her daughter to get a little of that.

Or, in the words of the Ocean Dub, an average fighter but a brilliant scientist.

I mean, yeah Trunks is handling the corporate side of Capsule Corp, but not the technological side.

And I could have sworn Bra was always meant to be a little younger than Pan. And GT was like five years after Goku met Uub, so.

That said, Pan being sidelined was just mindboggling, as she was an active presence in every saga. Uub was even worse, as he was sidelined AND lacked the same presence. Adult Gotenks not appearing was the same thing. The GT/filler writers just tend to forget that a varied cast is part of Dragon Ball's charm.

Agreed, yeah.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9828: Mar 2nd 2015 at 6:28:42 AM

[up]Well, by that logic Trunks should be a genius, too. Instead, it's Gohan who seems to be the (academically) smartest out of the half-saiyans, despite his father. Kids aren't necessarily going to be copies of their parents.

(Thinking more about it, the new DBZ movies have Bra be younger than Pan. Well, GT definitely made her older, instead.)

edited 2nd Mar '15 6:32:21 AM by JonnasN

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#9829: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:30:24 AM

They had Super Saiyan as a way to show that they had potential. Two people that couldn't even match 18 being able to knock Buu around when fused would be far less believable than two combined Super Saiyans being able to.

If you expect me to leave the assumptions of 10 year old boys unchallenged, you are sorely mistaken. "The audience wouldn't like it" is not a reasoning I take kindly to, to say the least

Look up the psychological profiles of 10 year old boys. From the ages of 5-12, boys play with other boys and think girls are gross. I, at that age, scoffed at programs with girls as mains, if memory serves.

Also, tonnes and tonnes of shonen manga that exclude having gender equality support the idea that, at the very least, the people in the biz think boys wouldn't read a series of badass grrrl pwer. And again, if anyone wants that, they can read shoujou, which treats male characters worse than shonen treats females.

I'm merely saying that there are ways it could be better, and while I can't speak for unnoun, I think we at least partially share that viewpoint.

I can't see how Goku or Vegeta's genders make the series better or worse, sorry.

This is all about trends. And like it or not, trends within the supplemental material have a big impact on perception of the series.

If you're gonna be badmouthing the manga like you did a few pages back because of things supplemental material introduces, I don't know how to reply to you. Here's why I avoid supplemental material like the plague: I hate Bardock (ever since that nonsensical manga about him), Broly, most of the things from GT, everyone getting super saiyan and that all of them subscribe to the creed "Goku time!"

I don't care about supplemental material because it's almost always shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

You said it would make the series worse.

No, what I said was putting your ideas on the backburner just to have diversity for the sake of diversity is a way to make your show worse.

edited 2nd Mar '15 7:36:37 AM by Cruherrx

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#9830: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:35:00 AM

Which brings us to the age-old nature vs nurture discussion.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#9831: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:37:29 AM

Not really. What matter is the Japanese head honchos that are in charge at Jump clearly believe this.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
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#9832: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:40:38 AM

And that sucks and should change.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#9833: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:51:01 AM

Not really. It's not like Shonen is the only magazine that targets a specific demo. Girls have Shoujou, which excludes boys too.

I dunno man, it's like making the choice to go into a desert and then complaining about the lack of swimming pools. Seinen tends to have an equal mix.

edited 2nd Mar '15 7:52:12 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
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#9834: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:56:28 AM

They had Super Saiyan as a way to show that they had potential. Two people that couldn't even match 18 being able to knock Buu around when fused would be far less believable than two combined Super Saiyans being able to.

No, it wouldn't. They had no chance against Buu individually, they had no chance against Buu fused. With or without Super Saiyan, they were just plain outmatched. Their transformation just allowed them to be blonde while getting the shit beat out of them, and it was only Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks that ever stood a chance of defeating Majin Buu, and that transformation has nothing to do with what the kids can pull off individually.

Look, this is what it boils down to.

  • Gohan: Is born with an astronomical battle power for no good reason because apparently human blood just makes Saiyans super-strong. Spends half his character history outmatching even the experienced adults in short bursts. Most powerful person ever just because he was born to be the most powerful person ever.
  • Goten and Trunks: Became Super Saiyans at age 7, against all logic or common sense. Fusion Dance introduced to the series just to give them a way to fight the likes of Majin Buu despite their age. Also achieved Super Saiyan 3 for the same reason, when even Gohan and Vegeta can't.
  • Pan: No, don't give her Super Saiyan, that'd be silly and unbelievable, as opposed to the other children who were handled with the utmost care towards keeping them in their appropriate weight class.

Would Pan turning into a Super Saiyan at her young age be a stretch? I say no, or at least, not any moreso than anything else Gohan, Goten, and Trunks ever did.

edited 2nd Mar '15 7:58:02 AM by TobiasDrake

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#9835: Mar 2nd 2015 at 7:56:48 AM

I am unconvinced of the idea that entertainment aimed at boys needs must consist only or primarily of boy characters.

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#9836: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:00:51 AM

[up][up]Except, and here's the kicker, they were introduced in the Buu Arc. How do you show them having the same insane potential Gohan had in just the span of that one arc? Toriyama chose to do so by giving them Super Saiyan, and making them beat 18. Gohan had numerous chances to show glimpses of that potential, while Goten and Trunks had to be fast-tracked.

[up]It's likely to not ever change though. Unless one of the heads of Shonen Jump decide they should take a risk and change their highly successful business model. And SJ is notorious for not taking chances with how quickly they kill the mangas in their magazine...

The difference with Shonen excluding females as prominent main characters and Hollywood doing it is you don't have an alternative medium where the opposite is true in Hollywood. Shoujou is just as popular as Shonen is. Pretty Cure, which is diabetes condensed into a 23 minute show, outsells Dragonball and sells equally or slightly less than the juggernaut, One Piece.

edited 2nd Mar '15 8:03:14 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
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#9837: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:14:13 AM

Which is kinda nice. Though the whole "there's boy stuff and girl stuff, keep them separate" mentality is kind of unfortunate to begin with.

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#9838: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:16:56 AM

Gohan wasn't showing glimpses. They had Scouters for his arc. They could actually show us the battle power readings when he got angry and suddenly was more powerful than any of the other heroes. A glimpse is a hint. A suggestion. Gohan's incredible power was explicit.

Gohan was about Pan's age when he erupted from Raditz's space pod and shattered Raditz's space armor, doing more damage in a single hit than Goku and Piccolo had managed to do in the entire fight prior. That wasn't a "glimpse". That was setting the stage for his character arc by unambiguously displaying that this child is the single most powerful person in this battle.

You are correct that Goten and Trunks had less time and thus less opportunity to do ridiculous things, but let me turn that back on you, because Pan had even less time to demonstrate that she has just as much potential as Goten, Trunks, and Gohan. So why not let her transform? It would do the same thing for her that you propose it did for them.

If you maintain that Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans was to show that their potential was equal to Gohan's, then the only reason not to let Pan do the same would be if you don't think her potential should be equal to theirs.

edited 2nd Mar '15 8:19:02 AM by TobiasDrake

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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#9839: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:30:28 AM

[up]Cool. So was 4 year old Gohan equal to his full potential realized as Ultimate Gohan? No? Then it was glimpses of his true potential.

And that brings us back to what I said earlier, no? That Goten and Trunks had their potential power shown because they would be playing a significant role soon. The story was already over when Pan was introduced.

And really, it's more an "And the adventure continues," kind of ending than "This is the end for these characters!" That's how it was presented, so Pan has a lot of stuff to learn ahead of her. Her pulling Super Saiyan within a chapter of her introduction just means she has less to do in the future.

[up][up]I feel like that's an oversimplification. It's not like Shonen don't have female characters. They do, but they're just often not as prominent as the male main characters, and when they are, usually not in the numbers as the males.

edited 2nd Mar '15 8:32:24 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
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#9840: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:38:02 AM

That's not what I was saying (though that's definitely a topic to tackle at some point). What I meant was that the whole "shows (or toys, or games, or what have you) for boys" and "shows for girls" mentality, and how widespread and assumed it is, is kind of unfortunate. It could be better.

edited 2nd Mar '15 8:38:47 AM by Enlong

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#9841: Mar 2nd 2015 at 8:40:17 AM

To be honest, all I can say is that the expanded universe being revitalized and getting a canon is a real good move in my opinion. Stuff happening instead of GT and all that.

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#9842: Mar 2nd 2015 at 9:03:45 AM

It was an explicit statement of his true potential. Not a glimpse.

That the story was over when Pan was introduced is exactly the reason why she should have become a Super Saiyan right then and there. Having "less to do in the future" is a moot point because when will be no future; the adventure continues for the characters, but for the audience, this is the end of the story. Pan has one chance to wow the audience before credits roll.

Saving her transformation to never show later is an excuse, not a reason, and it leaves the audience with the bitter taste of Tethercat asserting that she will never transform.

edited 2nd Mar '15 9:05:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9843: Mar 2nd 2015 at 9:49:36 AM

[up]What he meant was that Gohan's potential was built over time. He'd get enraged and outperform the adults, but only occasionally, and only in small bursts. It wasn't until the Cell games that we saw Gohan in full control of his power, and realising his potential.

Meanwhile, Goten and Trunks had to be brought up to speed. They didn't have time on their side for character development like Gohan's, but Toriyama wanted them to be relevant enough to have a shot at fighting Buu. Saying that they were ultimately meaningless, and that therefore the Super Sayan forms were not needed, is missing a lot of things. First of all, it needed to be clear that these kids were exceptional for their age, that they could reach levels that Gohan and the others spent years to achieve, and that fusing into Gotenks would allow them to reach even greater heights. And yes, his defeat against Buu is part of the story, and not a meaningless one, as it was pretty damn entertaining (the actual purpose of a Shonen manga), and it opened up the door for Buu to absorb him and Piccolo. In order to achieve all of this, it needed to be clear from the start that the kids were capable of reaching Super Saiyan levels of power.

Pan going Super Saiyan in the final chapters serves no narrative purpose. There is no enemy coming up, there is no threat. Maybe she's close to doing it already, I don't know, that's up to the reader. Having her go Super Saiyan from the get-go is saying "She can also reach Super Saiyan, kthanksbye, THE END". It's repeating Goten's jokes at best, and turning her into a borderline Mary Sue at worst. And for what, to empower a 4 year old little girl that can already beat up adult men? She's the unknown future, and showing that she's Saiyan levels of strong should be enough.

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#9844: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:11:33 AM

My point is that Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan did nothing to bring them up to speed. They were never up to speed until Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was the only time Goten and Trunks were ever able to compete in the entire Buu Saga, and that is using a form that neither of them can achieve on their own; there is no Super Saiyan 3 Goten or Super Saiyan 3 Trunks, it is Gotenks-exclusive.

Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan did not make them a match for Buu. The Fusion Dance did, by allowing them to achieve a level of power neither of them could achieve alone, and then allowing them to amplify that power 400x. That they can become Super Saiyans while separate is unnecessary, and exists only because it was cool to see them become Super Saiyans and impress everybody.

Simply put, the reason to let Pan transform in the final chapters is because there's no reason not to. She's too young? First of all, no she's not, and second, if that's really an issue, write her older. There's ten years between Buu and Uub, there's time to make her at least Goten's age if that's such a big deal. And the Adventure Continues? Sweet, let it continue with a Super Saiyan. There's no bad guys to fight? Well, that defeats the purpose of claiming And the Adventure Continues, now doesn't it? Besides, that never stopped Goten and Trunks. It's a shonen series and so girls don't matter? You know what else is a shonen manga? Fullmetal Alchemist, and there were loads of female characters doing things and contributing in that, so that "It's a shonen!" crap is just a thinly-veiled excuse to justify sexism; nowhere is there a Law of Shonen that says women should never be a part of the series in any major way, and frankly, if it's directed at young boys and you're teaching them to marginalize women because they're not important, that's bad.

There is no reason not to that is not predicated on her being a "little girl" as you so eloquently put it. Little boys got to blow everyone out of the water from the moment they step onscreen, but she is a girl, so she's treated her with kiddy gloves. There is no reason. These excuses have never once applied to a single male character in the entire franchise. They are just that: excuses, and poor ones at that.

edited 2nd Mar '15 10:15:13 AM by TobiasDrake

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#9845: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:15:07 AM

[up] This.

I can't see how Goku or Vegeta's genders make the series better or worse, sorry.

Nobody said anything like that.

If you're gonna be badmouthing the manga like you did a few pages back because of things supplemental material introduces, I don't know how to reply to you.

I only badmouthed the manga because I keep being told that many of my favorite moments in the series are just "filler". Aside from that, I haven't "badmouthed" anything.

But the franchise is more than just the manga, but often carries trends and patterns of the manga, because it uses the manga as a basis. With deviations, but every deviation needs a baseline to deviate from.

It doesn't make the manga bad.

But it does make certain decisions the manga makes worth questioning and analyzing.

Mary Sue

I refuse to have discussions when this term is used.

I can barely tolerate "canon" as it is, but this is where I draw the line.

No, what I said was putting your ideas on the backburner just to have diversity for the sake of diversity is a way to make your show worse.

Let's be honest, Toriyama would often change his ideas because old friends or editors told him to or because a new one came to him.

This is not a series I think we can pull the absolute artistic integrity card on. It was commercial, because Toriyama wanted to get paid.

Good for him.

And it lead to some great, fantastic moments, like when Gohan turned Super Saiyan 2.

But saying that every decision Toriyama made is beyond reproach because it matched his original ideas is kind of untrue in a lot of cases.

The ideas evolved over time.

edited 2nd Mar '15 10:20:24 AM by unnoun

Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#9846: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:42:28 AM

Gotta love DBZA, with all the funny ha-ha's and whatnot.

It's great that we have this thread to discuss it and only it, so we can share in the ha-ha's and whatnot.

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#9847: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:44:18 AM

If you want to say it, say it, please.

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#9848: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:46:03 AM

is there any new ep of the Xenoverse LP out yet?want more Dumplin.

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#9849: Mar 2nd 2015 at 10:47:48 AM

Episode 3 is up now, yes. Haven't seen it yet myself.

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