Goten and Trunks aren't actually better than all the characters before them.
It seems like they peaked early.
Maybe mostly because they gave up training to pursue other interests, but.
It also seems like the Super Saiyans are getting progressively younger.
That last chapter was capped off with Goku meeting Uub and taking him to train.
The point of those last three chapters was to give the sense that the series was starting over, that there was a new generation to take the mantle of the old. Bra looks a lot like Bulma, and is close friends with Pan, who acts like Goku and unlike Goten and Trunks is still interested in training and improving herself.
I mean, the introduction of Uub is basically the first time the series ever bothered to even start to deal with issues of poverty.
And, y'know, I think it's also disappointing how desiring improvement is somehow a terrible sin.
"Be realistic. Ask the impossible."
Also, I'm not exactly white myself.
edited 1st Mar '15 7:35:45 PM by unnoun
- See, Goten and Trunks getting Super Saiyan actually served the plot. They had a reason to have it.
- Good, I'm glad you see that's the reason behind the ending. Now, wouldn't it be more conducive to the tone trying to be established that the future of Goku's family still has a lot to learn instead of randomly busting out Super Saiyan?
- Stop acting like everyone is against you. What I don't appreciate is the notion that every show has to conform to what you deem as progressive, regardless of what story the author wants to tell.
Not really. I mean, the whole Gotenks vs. Buu thing sorta ended up being really pointless.
I mean. Combined they got outclassed by Gohan, who got outclassed by Vegito, then they all sorta died and it ended up being Goku and Vegeta and Mr. Satan and Buu vs. Buu.
Then there was a Spirit Bomb involved, and.
Anyway. Goten and Trunks being Super Saiyans just ended up as another link in the neverending chain of escalation.
And by the Goku vs. Uub fight at the World Tournament it seems like they're both stronger than Super Saiyans even though Goku never even leaves his base state. That's one hell of an escalation.
I'm not quite sure where I did any of these things.
I think that authors are entitled to tell any stories they want to tell.
And I am entitled to interrogate those stories. To question, to challenge, and to push against.
To at least ask why, to examine, to think.
Maybe Pan and Bra being Super Saiyan in the last chapter of the manga isn't the best solution. That's fine.
I'm genuinely curious why you think it would have been such a bad thing.
I think it would at least have been preferable to the current state of affairs, where there is no official media of her as a Super Saiyan but a movie, a manga, and multiple video games revolving around Super Saiyan Bardock.
Obviously Toriyama couldn't have foreseen that, so I'm not "blaming" him per se. I'm not "blaming" anyone except perhaps the franchise itself.
I think that all of this is worth talking about and considering, if nothing else.
edited 1st Mar '15 7:55:18 PM by unnoun
Just. Why?
Because they're too stupid not to reference in the gag dub voicepack. Much like turning Wolf Fang Fist into Cat Loves Food.
And anyway, judging from the other voices, that move is already some sort of dance move attack, so it's kind of difficult to make it more silly.
Actually, the first time would be Nam, the guy who joined the world martial arts tournament the same year Goku and Krillin first did, in order to win enough money to buy water for his village.
edited 1st Mar '15 7:57:19 PM by Enlong
I have a message from another time...Okay, so the first time in like a little over ten years.
Because that's better.
In some ways I think regression is almost worse, really. Not in all ways, but.
I think Kaiser mentions being in the recording booth and helping rewrite Taka's lines.
So. That actually makes it even better.
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That makes sense, considering Kaiser is the resident Japanese version fan, and some of Taka's lines reference it...
I think that's the biggest problem here, really.
No one's asking for perfection, but I don't think any series should be exempt from this sort of criticism.
Oh God! Natural light!
Why is it a problem? Dragonball has a prominent female character in Bulma, who manages to contribute far more to the plot than most of the characters. Is it because there's no woman that's kicking ass and being super cool (ignoring the fact that 18 crushed Vegeta)? Is it because you can't be a well-developed character without also being super duper strong?
I hate to have to remind people of this, but it's a different culture, and the series while it was running was aimed at 10 year old boys. I hate to break it to you, but little boys don't get out of their "girls are icky" stage until adolescence: which is primarily why you don't see women leading Shonen. If you want more female characters, read Shoujou.
Outcome's pretty irrelevant when you remember DB was a weekly series and Toriyama was largely making things up as he went along. Gotenks served his role as a character, as did Goten and Trunks. They actually needed Super Saiyan to fulfill that role.
Let me quote where you play the victim and act like it's a sin to disagree with you:
- And, y'know, I think it's also disappointing how desiring improvement is somehow a terrible sin.
- The fact that you are reacting so negatively about it I find rather disappointing.
I'm genuinely curious why you think it would have been such a bad thing.
Don't do that. I disagreed with you asserting that it's a bad thing that they didn't randomly bust out Super Saiyan. I wouldn't care if they used it, much like I don't care that they didn't. All I care about is the fact that it is not an ill on Toriyama's part that two toddlers didn't use Super Saiyan, and it does not detract from the series at all.
I don't care about supplemental material.
edited 1st Mar '15 9:31:20 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."I can appreciate Bulma's scientific know-how, but she's still just one character (there might also be some criticisms to be made about her character, but I'm definitely not the person to make them).
In any case, considering how action-oriented Dragon Ball is, yes, I do consider it important that there be female characters who can throw down with the best of them - by which I mean "Super Saiyan level".
If you expect me to leave the assumptions of 10 year old boys unchallenged, you are sorely mistaken. "The audience wouldn't like it" is not a reasoning I take kindly to, to say the least.
I'm not using this as an excuse to hate Dragon Ball, if that's what you're thinking. While I've never been a fan per se, I have a great appreciation for its influence. I'm merely saying that there are ways it could be better, and while I can't speak for unnoun, I think we at least partially share that viewpoint.
Oh God! Natural light!Although sometimes its better to have no major female characters than have a female character and screw her up (I'm looking at you, Naruto).
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Well, I don't know. I consider trying to at least be something (although from what I've heard about Naruto's problems with this, that might be overly charitable).
Unless you're writing yaoi, I disagree with the assertion that it is ever better to have no major female characters.
They didn't, actually. The power-increase of the Fusion Dance is already undefined, as are Goten and Trunks's battle powers. Being able to become Super Saiyans individually didn't make much difference at all in the plot, nor did it make much difference for Gotenks to be able to. The only transformation for Goten and Trunks that influenced the story was Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, and that's not something they can do individually.
If you cut their ability to make the first Super Saiyan leap, the only thing that changes is that people don't spend the early portion of the Buu Saga gasping in shock at their ability to become Super Saiyans.
Goten and Trunks are the youngest ever Super Saiyans because Toriyama thought that was a nifty idea. No other reason. It is not a critical element, it is not plot-intensive, it is never utilized as a key building block of the story, it's just there to be neat.
edited 1st Mar '15 11:01:16 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Fair enough. Sorry.
- And, y'know, I think it's also disappointing how desiring improvement is somehow a terrible sin.
- The fact that you are reacting so negatively about it I find rather disappointing.
I don't think those are instances of me doing that. I mean, I've even conceded a few points along the way.
I was taking note specifically of the extent of your disagreement.
Others have disagreed with me on various points but not as vehemently. That was specifically what I took notice of.
...I was still wrong to do so though. Ignoring the hypocrisy on my part, it's not actually any of my damn business, especially since I was probably reading too much into it to begin with. Sorry.
You said it would make the series worse.
And as I said, I'm not blaming Toriyama necessarily for anything.
None of this is about you. Or me, for that matter.
This is all about trends. And like it or not, trends within the supplemental material have a big impact on perception of the series.
edited 2nd Mar '15 5:10:51 AM by unnoun

I could also say the fact that you're bringing this whole "she's a female character so she should be even better than all the other characters before her!" rather disappointing, but I'm nowhere near that patronizing.
I don't see any reason why Pan has to be a Super Saiyan at age 4. I don't see how it makes things better. I don't see how it adds anything to her character when she wasn't much of a character to begin with (largely due to being introduced in the final 3 chapters of the series). Finally, I don't see why everything has to have perfect representation of every demographic ever, and I really don't see why this is being brought into a series as good-natured as Dragonball. I mean, I'm black and you don't see me complaining about the lack of main character black guys that are super special awesome.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."