TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball Z Abridged

Go To

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9676: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:43:51 PM

He's stronger than Vegeta was when he arrived on Earth and for most of Namek. Vegeta has far surpassed him, though.

From the late Frieza Saga through series' end, Vegeta and Goku's power is atypical of Saiyans; by the Cell Saga, they've outgrown not just their race, but their universe, which is why the Buu Saga throwing god-killing abominations at them is entirely reasonable.

edited 26th Feb '15 12:46:39 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9677: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:48:01 PM

Power Creep much?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#9678: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:51:22 PM

In a way, it's kind of terrifying, how strong they are. Perhaps introducing Beerus was a good thing - he would the the only one who could keep them under wraps. Him and Whis. Although the new movie might change that.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9679: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:52:05 PM

[up][up]You're just now realizing that? I mean, for the entirety of Z era, if a power-up didn't increase you power level by at least one order of magnitude, it wasn't big enough to matter.

edited 26th Feb '15 12:52:19 PM by Gilphon

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9680: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:53:52 PM

No, I noticed that long ago.

I'm just trying to say how ridiculous it is.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9681: Feb 26th 2015 at 12:59:27 PM

@FOFD yeah, I do want that, because the whole idea of create a character is to create your ideal character and to have the game say "well, guess what? Your character is now piss weak because of the aesthetic choices you made. Have fun!" kind of takes the joy out of that. The stat penalties on items have really shone that quite well so far, already people are playing and realizing that dressing the way they want also completely ruins the playstyle they wanted.

The more games divorce aesthetics from gameplay, the better. The game has a level and stat system, so you could still have your glass cannons and whatever kind of character types you want that way.

And Xenoverse's racial diversity makes no goddamn sense.

Saiyan's as glass cannons? Saiyans are known for being particularly durable. Goku was bulletproof from chapter one when even the much stronger Roshi wasn't. Nappa was called "an insanely durable bastard" and Vegeta's well known for the horrific beatings he has endured and refusing to stay down. Complete nonsense to give them low defense as Xenoverse has done.

Majins have far superior regeneration to Namekians, why were they not the healing race? They also neglect their defence due not needing it 90% of the time. A low defence race that regenerates well would make more sense. They also should have good stamina, since Boo has never been shown getting tired - only damaged.

Namekians shouldn't be the primary regenerative race with Majins around. Also, in the series their regeneration actually used up their stamina, so giving bonuses to both does not make sense. I feel you're really reaching with the items bonus, it's easy to just make up crap to justify it for anyone - humans, Saiyans and Freeza all had access to advanced technology, Namekians and Majins can materialize items. The Dragon Balls are way too loose a connection.

Freeza clan having low speed and attack has no grounding. Freeza's whole thing was being absurdly powerful, and his speed was only part of that. The characters had an easier time keeping up with his speed than his strength.

The race system plain doesn't make sense as it is. You can make the same differences in stat points, or making players also choose a "fighting style" / "class" that provides the same bonuses and penalties. It's easy to have all the differences without locking out options for aesthetics.

So what I want is 100 choices of make up alongside choices of making heads explode, shooting lasers or defying gravity.

It's not saying aesthetics come first over gameplay, but saying aesthetics come separately from gameplay. I don't want to be penalized for wearing a blue shirt, or restricted from something my choice of race can totally do but isn't in the game because of balance.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:03:43 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9682: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:03:31 PM

The Power Creep is definitely insane. The Frieza Saga is to blame for much of this; Frieza, in his First Form, outweighed the entire cast by an insane margin. Goku arrived on Namek with a battle power of 90,000, Krillin rose to 75,000 courtesy of his potential being unlocked, Gohan got all the way to 200,000 and Vegeta to 250,000 after the Ginyu battle. These battle powers are already fantastic compared to Goku's 8,000 on Earth. Seems ridiculous?

Frieza scoffs at your battle powers with 540,000 in his First Form. And then he has three transformations. And then he's only using a small percentage of his power even after he unveils his Final Form. Frieza plays the Not Left Handed card so many times with such ridiculous numbers behind it that it demands the rest of the cast just start making shit up to get their battle powers as high as they need to be.

For instance, Goku's final Zenkai takes him from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one shot, a permanent 33% increase for no reason other than because it has to in order to get him from Ginyu-stomping to Final Form, and that still isn't even close to good enough; even pushing his Kaioken to x20, Goku's 60,000,000 battle power is only half of Frieza's.

Namekian Fusion is another spectacular example of the insane growth the characters had to do to catch up to Frieza, with Piccolo - battle power 3,500 - and Nail - battle power 42,000 - somehow combining to reach a total of 1,000,000 in order to stand a chance against Second Form Frieza. Abridged Vegeta rightfully pointed out how utterly bullshit this is.

As we've talked about plenty of times before in this and the Dragon Ball thread, if you ever want to be upset that Yamcha and Tien got left in the dust, blame Frieza. Namek was a candyland of ridiculous power growth and they missed the boat.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:05:48 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9683: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:05:14 PM

Does anyone else think that the Freeza Saga was the most poorly written?

[up]That sounds more than 33%.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:06:13 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9684: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:05:34 PM

Yeah fuck Freeza. While it was always ridiculous before that, Freeza arc creep was on a whole new level and kind of ruined the concept.

[up] no. The escalation was probably the biggest fault of the arc, that isn't the greatest sin.

Plus nearly everything before Goku arrives is absolute gold.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:08:49 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9685: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:06:49 PM

[up][up] I don't, I just think it had the most ridiculous hard numbers.

I have written essays many times in this thread and the other one about why the Cell Saga is atrociously written, makes absolutely no sense, and thoroughly indulges in all the worst things people hate about Dragon Ball.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9686: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:09:04 PM

For instance, Goku's final Zenkai takes him from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one shot, a permanent 33% increase

Is my math wrong, or is that more than 33%?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#9687: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:09:12 PM

And that was the problem with Power Levels. It gave us an actual scale on how ridiculous the Power Creep got. While it became an easy way to gauge an opponent's strength, the scale of how quickly the numbers went up...by the end of Namek, it was getting a little crazy. By Freeza, it was getting ridiculous.

There's a reason TFS skipped Freeza's third form in their Kai Abridged. Things were just getting LOOOONG. Although the entire Freeza fight is really entertaining in TFS.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9688: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:10:46 PM

Worst written for me is hard to tell. There are some arcs that have more flaws than others, but also have more good moments.

I'd say probably the RRA arc. Plenty of flaws, very little good. Muscle Tower was cool.

[up][up] Tobias should have said 33x also should have said first form Freeza was 530000

edited 26th Feb '15 1:12:43 PM by Saiga

Dragon_Ranger Since: Jan, 2010
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9690: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:16:04 PM

Yeah, I should have said 33x. My bad.

I feel that Frieza did a serviceable job of being what he was supposed to be - after all the foreshadowing of how Frieza was an unstoppable force and nobody in the universe could ever hope to stand a chance against him, Frieza stepped up to the plate and validated all of it. He was supposed to be unattainably powerful, a force so great and terrifying that nothing our heroes could pull out would ever hope to stand a chance against him. In this regard, he was successful at fulfilling his role.

The Frieza battle was a long sequence of the heroes pulling out every gun in Chekhov's Armory and then some against him and every option, every strategy, every hope failing. Even Goku was completely and thoroughly outmatched, the Kaioken wasn't strong enough, the Spirit Bomb failed. After repeatedly being told that beating Frieza was never going to be possible, it had finally come to it and Frieza COULD NOT be beaten. Period.

If they'd left it at that, let the heroes escape to Earth with the awesome Dragon Ball shenanigans, let the Android Saga happen with the threat of Freiza looming in the background, then came back around to Frieza at a later date, he would have worked fine. The characters would have more time and opportunity to match his ridiculous power, and the Androids and Cell wouldn't be so jarringly mismatched for their place in the escalation.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:18:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9691: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:17:02 PM

3,000,000 doesn't seem like 133% of 90,000.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#9692: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:20:30 PM

That's because it isn't.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9693: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:27:27 PM

Then how is it a 33% increase?

Sorry for my idiocy.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9694: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:33:39 PM

I screwed up and meant to say 33x. 3,000,000 is a 33x increase.

I used a % where it should have been an x.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:33:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9695: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:40:15 PM

Oh, okay.

Sorry. [lol]

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9696: Feb 26th 2015 at 1:45:47 PM

I prefer Freeza being beaten than remaining some kind of unattainable level of strength, especially when fuck all effort is put into justifying, explaining or even handwaving his strength.

Personally I would have quashed the power scaling and made Freeza a mutant like the rest of his followers, but one who trained to actually realize his potential. Realizing he's only the first to do this rather than inherently gifted, he creates his empire so that he can stop an equal or even superior foe from ever arising. The mutants he recruits are made to feel special, and given such privilege in his army that they squander their potential. They're the greatest and most gifted in the universe, why train? With his new army, Freeza gains control over the universe. Any potential mutants who won't join, die. If his followers show signs of getting stronger, they die.

Freeza's power can still be ridiculous, the struggle against him can be just as gruesome except maybe with less shafting Piccolo. But he doesn't need to be some super unique guy with no backstory, this way the universe does have the potential to spit out more Freezas but he just doesn't allow it. Fits what we already know of his character, extends his paranoia of the Saiyans over to any race.

Without the fucking stupid escalation of the Freeza arc, the Androids and Cell are placed just fine.

edited 26th Feb '15 1:46:49 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9697: Feb 26th 2015 at 2:18:23 PM

Agreed.

I like this idea Saiga.

Almost makes me feel bad about wanting to assassinate you.

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#9698: Feb 26th 2015 at 2:20:36 PM

That's like, the first real good idea for a rewrite of DBZ that I've heard.

Although it'll make the new movie not make sense.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#9699: Feb 26th 2015 at 3:00:54 PM

I like how the rest of TFS is just gushing about Taka's lines in Xenoverse.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9700: Feb 26th 2015 at 3:15:31 PM

Saiyan's as glass cannons? Saiyans are known for being particularly durable. Goku was bulletproof from chapter one when even the much stronger Roshi wasn't. Nappa was called "an insanely durable bastard" and Vegeta's well known for the horrific beatings he has endured and refusing to stay down. Complete nonsense to give them low defense as Xenoverse has done.

Majins have far superior regeneration to Namekians, why were they not the healing race? They also neglect their defence due not needing it 90% of the time. A low defence race that regenerates well would make more sense. They also should have good stamina, since Boo has never been shown getting tired - only damaged.

Namekians shouldn't be the primary regenerative race with Majins around. Also, in the series their regeneration actually used up their stamina, so giving bonuses to both does not make sense. I feel you're really reaching with the items bonus, it's easy to just make up crap to justify it for anyone - humans, Saiyans and Freeza all had access to advanced technology, Namekians and Majins can materialize items. The Dragon Balls are way too loose a connection.

Freeza clan having low speed and attack has no grounding. Freeza's whole thing was being absurdly powerful, and his speed was only part of that. The characters had an easier time keeping up with his speed than his strength.

Well when you put it that way, those do make more sense.

I'd really, really prefer the races to be more of a flavour thing than impact gameplay

And see I'd hate this. What's the point of being "a part" of the Dragonball universe, of any universe, when your OC is just silly puddy, a hodgepodge of implausible features and traits?

With a more nuanced decision on which races get which bonuses/effects, the idea of playing different races with exclusive features, ability-restricting they may be, is workable. Games do that all the time. I'd rather that than "infinite" beard and hairstyle options that don't matter while stats do. Mind, I haven't played Xenoverse, so maybe the concept's too restricting there, but it can be fine-tuned.

Want Super Saiyan? Give the transformation blonde hair and green eyes, plus the aura change. Drag the muscle slider across for any of the graded forms, etc.

The amount of transformations would be limited to a certain number (matching whatever original character has the most forms) and can be unlocked through spending attribute points, just like how you add additional ki bars currently.

And then this. This makes aesthetics separate from gameplay, but it also makes both sides boring.

Having Super Saiyan/Kaioken/etc be the exact same thing gameplaywise? That makes the concept aesthetic, putting focus on stat assignment. Being a Super Saiyan should have weight, it shouldn't just be something you dress up as. Unlock this tier, pick Super Saiyan or Kaioken flavor, same boost, same effect on gameplay.

I feel you're really reaching with the items bonus, it's easy to just make up crap to justify it for anyone - humans, Saiyans and Freeza all had access to advanced technology, Namekians and Majins can materialize items. The Dragon Balls are way too loose a connection.

They were created by them, programmed by them, and despite Frieza and the Saiyans having access to advanced technology, both still went after the Dragonballs. In addition to Namekians being capable of materializing items, they own the most important items/objects in the series.

Regeneration should go to Majins, sure, and Saiyans should maybe have higher defense, fair, and Frieza's whatever because he's a little bit of everything - but if you give those to the rest, and humans are Jack of All Trades, then items are a sensible gimmick for Nameks.

Otherwise all they have are stretchy arms and superhuman hearing. Hearing can only factor in if Ki-Searching/Locking On is an aspect of gameplay, and stretchy arms is usually a 'Piccolo Move' by default.

edited 26th Feb '15 5:06:57 PM by FOFD


Total posts: 40,340
Top