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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9601: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:58:24 PM

Doesn't change that just starting to take it is a bad idea. You can't just be pretty sure, or say that we don't know the medicine type. That's simply not good enough - you don't take medicine if you're not sick. End of story.

Goku was displaying symptoms before the heart attack, but since it happened while the Android shit was going on (Yajirobe's plane was shot down first) and not when they were expecting it they didn't pick it up so quickly. If not for the timing being thrown off, it'd be as easy as them training, Goku being like oh hey this heart virus thing is happening and then dealing with it.

Yeah, Trunks could've said "in around X months you'll have it" but it wouldn't have been a problem if not for time being thrown off.

[up] Ship would have arrived without Goku in it. It's autopilot.

Although I wonder if the lack of Goku's weight in it should have affected anything.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:59:34 PM by Saiga

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9602: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:04:20 PM

But when you don't take the medicine, or keep it nearby, which is exactly what they did, you end up in the exact situation that Goku ended up in - crushed under the weight of a mechanical, 300-pound clown of terror, while your heart is getting ready to burst.

Preventative medicines exist. Rob just mentioned that Trunks told him not to take it until he started experiencing symptoms, I forgot that.

edited 20th Feb '15 6:08:14 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9603: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:08:11 PM

No, that's what happens when the timing is way off. For Goku to have taken the medicine with no symptoms and wind up in good condition to fight 19 would be a miracle.

Wait, no, it'd be impossible. Because he still has to be bedridden while taking the treatment. Taking the medicine in advance wouldn't stop him from getting it at all, because it's not an instant treatment and he doesn't have the symptoms yet.

The only way to avoid him having the heart attack at that time would be if he wasn't going to have the heart attack at that time. There is absolutely nothing anyone can do about the two events coinciding.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9604: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:12:14 PM

Vaccines. Inoculation. You take those before you get a serious condition, so your body builds up an immunity. You don't wait to get a flu shot until the moment you start developing flu-like symptoms.

I didn't remember Trunks telling Goku to take the medicine when he got the disease, so there. I'm not a doctor, but without further clarification from Trunks, that medicine could've been anything from 20 Minutes into the Future.

Hell, Bulma could've studied it's molecular composition and probably could have made more, made it early for the rest of mankind. Because if she can perfect time travel in a post-apocalyptic future, she can recreate future medicine, damn it.

edited 20th Feb '15 6:15:57 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9605: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:17:18 PM

You don't even need to remember that line. It was medication for the heart disease and made clear in multiple ways why it hadn't been taken. To assume that it was some preventive measure without anything to believe that is super weird, because that's not even the majority of medication.

edited 20th Feb '15 6:17:45 PM by Saiga

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9606: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:28:23 PM

It was medication for the heart disease and made clear in multiple ways why it hadn't been taken

I've heard one way - Trunks telling Goku he shouldn't take it. He tossed him the pills and nothing else was said on the matter, except Piccolo telling Yamcha to take them in the anime I think. In what other ways was it made clear why they shouldn't be taken?

Not super-weird. Said pills came from a future where time travel is possible, and Trunks didn't give a lot of detail on the medicine or the disease in the first place.

"You're going to die in give or take 3 years from a disease that can't really be explained. Take these pills when you maybe start to get sick, assuming it isn't a heart attack that kills you within 5 minutes, made by Dr. What's-his-face. The medicine will take 10 days, or at least it did when we tested it on humans and animals."

-Goku got HEART MEDICINE!-

edited 20th Feb '15 6:35:18 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9607: Feb 20th 2015 at 6:56:13 PM

Gohan explaining exactly why Goku didn't take the medicine. The mere fact that Goku didn't take the medicine suggests it's not a preventive.

It doesn't mean anything that it's from the future. Most medicine simply does not work that way, and there was never an indication given that it would be a preventative.

Yeah, it's super weird. There's not a single thing to make it seem like a preventative, even without it being explained through dialogue.

And I think you're really overestimating how quickly he virus would kill Goku. He had time to fight 19, get beaten up and his energy drained, than be flown back to his house to take the medicine. The beating and energy draining should have made his situation far worse and he still weathered it.

So it's not some "symptoms appears and now you're dead" they should have had plenty of time to treat it under normal, non-Android circumstances.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9608: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:00:18 PM

I can't help but think the beating and Energy draining, while not tipping him over the edge, probably slowed his recovery.

I mean, how could they not.

One Strip! One Strip!
WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#9609: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:04:38 PM

Pills? I thought you were supposed to Drink it?

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9610: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:13:50 PM

I remember hearing somewhere, way back then, that Goku's heart virus was alien, and he caught it in Yardrat. But that was a long time ago, and nowadays I'm not confident at all in its validity, but I used to think of it as "Unique Alien disease", that's why it was incurable at first.

Anyway, yet another possible explanation for the disease's delay: Goku's medicine came with specific recommendations to resist the virus (e.g. "Avoid eating iron-rich fruits", or something), and Goku decided to follow them. Future!Goku ate "iron-rich fruits" without constraint, so the heart attack came earlier for him than it did for a Goku on an anti-virus diet.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9611: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:17:30 PM

The virus being from Yardrat is just fanon, although it makes sense why people would think that since he's the only one to go to Yardrat and it happened soon after he returned.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#9612: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:20:03 PM

[up][up] I know in the original dub of Dragonball Z Trunks says, "It's a radical new virus, you'll start hearing about it soon." implying that other people contracted it.

I looked up the virus medicine. Apparently it was originally a pill, but a few episode later it became a liquid.

[down] That assumes Goku can read.

edited 20th Feb '15 7:21:45 PM by WillKeaton

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9613: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:20:31 PM

Pill bottles come with instructions on the bottle for how to use it. It's safe to assume that Goku knew exactly what to do with it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9614: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:25:31 PM

[up][up] That's because when it was first seen in the manga, it wasn't made clear what it was. Then later it was shown to be a liquid, so the anime changed from pills to liquid to match the manga.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9615: Feb 20th 2015 at 7:31:45 PM

That assumes Goku can read.

If regular Goku can't read, he's smart enough to have Gohan or Bulma read it to him.

Abridged Goku actually was supposed to take it but didn't because it was grape flavored.

In either instance, ability to read is irrelevant.

edited 20th Feb '15 7:32:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#9616: Feb 20th 2015 at 8:32:34 PM

I should also mention that 19 is probably way more than 300 pounds. And not just because it's fat. It's made of metal, yannow?

A machine that size, even assuming it's got lighter areas of flexible metal, wiring, ect., is probably more than twice that.

edited 20th Feb '15 8:33:07 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#9617: Feb 21st 2015 at 2:32:21 AM

On another note,

according to manga canon, androids 17 and 18 may be just as strong in the future as they were in the present

Because future 17 outright says that he only fought SSJ Gohan at halfpower before, and Trunks wasnt around to hear that

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#9618: Feb 21st 2015 at 8:29:54 AM

Narrative logic says that if Toriyama put in a dramatic line for Trunks in the main storyline about the present androids being even stronger than his androids, without it being questioned or shown as inaccurate, then the audience is supposed to take his word for it as the truth even if History of Trunks came around and showed that he technically wouldn't know that for sure.

edited 21st Feb '15 8:30:34 AM by KnownUnknown

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#9619: Feb 21st 2015 at 8:51:07 AM

History of Trunks is based on a chapter in the Cell games volume of the manga where Future!17 actually does say that line before stomping Future!Gohan. I think it was a side story at first in Shonen Jump because IIRC it has a separate title in the volume which was something like "The Lone Wanderer/Warrior" or something like that. I can check when I get home to my collection.

edited 21st Feb '15 8:51:43 AM by LordofLore

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9620: Feb 21st 2015 at 9:28:43 AM

Really?

So Future 17 and 18 may not actually be weaker than their past counterparts, but just holding back much more?

It'd be interesting if it was true.

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9621: Feb 21st 2015 at 10:50:09 AM

[up](x5) But it can fly and it doesn't use ki energy (the Z-Fighters claim they can't sense whatever energy the Androids are using) or any visible propulsion. And it's fast enough to to react to Goku and Vegeta. sad

[up](x14) Confound it Saiga -shakes fist angrily- one of these days, I swear. There's going to be a topic Dragonball-related that you're wrong about, heck it might even be Bleach, and I'm going to call you on it. It might not even be me darn it, but it'll be someone twice as stubborn and resourceful!

EDIT: And then that pope hat will belong to me.

edited 21st Feb '15 10:56:05 AM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9622: Feb 21st 2015 at 10:54:12 AM

[up]

I second you're desire to see Saiga defeated.

And then, I will steal his pope hat.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#9623: Feb 21st 2015 at 11:46:27 AM

I still say it would be narratively redundant to even include a line like that from Trunks if it actually wasn't the case, particularly beacuse nothing actually comes of it and so it's not even presented as misleading (in contrast to the other things Trunks says that are established as misleading, which are given attention and are plot points).

The fact that Toriyama let that comparison lie without doing anything with it more than likely indicates that he intended for the audience to just accept it as truth and let it lie - that Trunks technically might be wrong matters less, because there's no real consequence made from it or event that follows it up.

At worst, Toriyama just wrote two separate lines of dialogue at different points that he didn't realize didn't mesh well. More likely, however, it's not really contradictory and we're just supposed to infer that even if they fought Trunks/Gohan at half strength, Trunks' assessment that the present androids are stronger is accurate.

Initially, the line about the present 17 and 18 being stronger was probably a handwave to explain why they were still able to curbstomp the Z-Fighters so easily despite their training. From what I know of History of Trunks or the oneshot (it's been a while since I've seen/read either), the line from 17 is likely something similar: Gohan is presented as Earth's last hope, so we get a line showing that even he had absolutely no chance of victory and that Earth was utterly screwed, to press in the hopelessness.

edited 21st Feb '15 11:54:16 AM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9624: Feb 21st 2015 at 2:53:17 PM

That second line could have been there to show that the future Androids were just holding back, but that wouldn't explain the evil difference so I think that might be a genuine change.

It's not necessarily that they don't mesh well, because Future Trunks fought them multiple times after Gohan died and they may not have held back. After all, Gohan had trained hard and was confident that he could beat them before knowing they held back, but Trunks after reaching a similar level said he couldn't handle them one-on-one.

The fact that Trunks was passed out does leave it as a possible explanation if you like it, though.

WillKeaton from Alberta, Canada Since: Jun, 2010
#9625: Feb 21st 2015 at 4:10:27 PM

Maybe the Future!Androids didn't actually start out evil, but were more or less the same as the Present!Androids. It's just that over time they did more and more atrocious stuff. Although in the main timeline 17 and 18 never did anything "evil" even by the end of the series. Maybe Being absorbed by Cell showed them that A) they aren't the strongest things on the planet and B) it isn't fun to be bullied and that changed their outlook considerably.

edited 21st Feb '15 4:11:16 PM by WillKeaton


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