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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9576: Feb 20th 2015 at 12:12:35 PM

17 and 18 were only after him in the first place for funsies. They weren't obeying orders at all. This should be evident by 17's cold-blooded murder of Dr. Gero.

If they'd been told Goku was dying of heart disease, they wouldn't call off their game; that would just make it a race. And then they wouldn't waste so much time shitting around like they did.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#9577: Feb 20th 2015 at 12:23:59 PM

...Saiyan Space Pod?

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9579: Feb 20th 2015 at 2:32:52 PM

Bulma absolutely couldn't build even something 19-level. Gero's designs amazed both her and her father.

After she had time to study and understand his designs she probably could, as she made the remote and fixed 16. But that would obviously take more time than just making the remote.

Anyway, the idea of 17/18 killing or torturing the group is ridiculous. The fact that they had no interest in hurting people that didn't want to fight back or were already defeated was already pointed out to show they weren't the same as the future Androids. It's a pretty big stretch to assume they'd immediately contradict that.

Piccolo could have done so many things other than fight them. Lie to them, attempt to escape (Cell was easily able to escape Piccolo, Trunks and Kuririn with the Taiyo-ken, a technique known to be easy to copy), hell since they've made a game of finding Goku, try a non-violent solution to keep them entertained. Fighting should be the last resort, because not only was it a terrible idea in this situation, there's nothing stopping him from doing it if any other plan fails. So try everything.

But the decision to stay at Kame House was silly, it should have never come to that. The only reason Piccolo was there was to watch TV, because they could have slept on the lookout just fine. And watching TV was super pointless at that point. But even if Piccolo really needs to sit around watching the news, a hotel/motel is a far better idea.

Of course, "some random city" is probably the second place Cell would look, if only because he's hungry.

This makes the hotel/motel option an infinitely better idea. They wanted to find Cell, but only showed up at the cities long after he'd left. Cell would shit himself if he broke into a place to find Piccolo waiting for him.


OH, and Rin you should edit your post. That person did not put in a cheat code, they modded. The description is misleading.

edited 20th Feb '15 2:33:49 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9580: Feb 20th 2015 at 2:48:36 PM

To be fair, even with the fact that they spared them, they were all still going on Trunk's claim that the Androids were the ultimate evil.

At that point, those two were seen as being a much of a threat as Cell was.

So believing he had to fight them wasn't so crazy to me.

Also note that even if he'd told them about Cell or something else, 17 and 18 (well, more 17 than 18 from what I could tell) believed they were the biggest dogs in the yard (they had no idea 16 was stronger since only he could sense powers). If he'd said anything, they would have likely said we'll just kick his ass! Now where's that Goku fella!

And now I await Saiga's reasons why I'm totally wrong.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9581: Feb 20th 2015 at 2:52:12 PM

No they weren't. Trunks immediately retracted his claim and said these weren't evil like the ones in his timeline.

Dragon_Ranger Since: Jan, 2010
#9582: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:12:18 PM

I thought when he said they weren't like the ones from his future, he was talking about their level of strength.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9583: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:15:25 PM

It was both. He said they're even stronger than the ones from his future, but they're also not evil.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9584: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:16:11 PM

Do we know why the main versions of 17 and 18 aren't as evil as the ones from Trunks' timeline?

edited 20th Feb '15 10:23:26 PM by Gilphon

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9585: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:29:00 PM

Not for sure, like with 19/20/16's existence or the power difference. There are only theories.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9586: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:30:38 PM

For Want Of A Nail.

I don't think it was ever really explained, but in one timeline, they were able to do whatever they wanted, in the other, Cell got in the way. Maybe the near-death experiences just shocked them out of being terrorists.

edited 20th Feb '15 3:30:59 PM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9587: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:30:39 PM

No they weren't. Trunks immediately retracted his claim and said these weren't evil like the ones in his timeline.

Hmmm.......

It was both. He said they're even stronger than the ones from his future, but they're also not evil.

It's been a while. I'll have to remember to check that. I always got the impression he still thought they were pretty evil, even if he did recognize that them leaving all of them alive was unorthodox (though they did the same thing in the Trunks Special.....though that may have been less leaving him alive and more no bothering to check if he was really dead after beating the shit out of them and blowing them up).

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9588: Feb 20th 2015 at 3:32:57 PM

Oh yeah, multiple characters speculate that time travel just plains screws things up. Because the timing of Goku's heart virus was also off.

So I guess in that sense we do know unless you want to dispute that being responsible for such things.

edited 20th Feb '15 3:34:27 PM by Saiga

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9589: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:01:01 PM

The date of Goku's heart virus really seems to be the one thing that can't be clearly explained by For Want of a Nail.

Explanation 1: Goku took some of the medicine at the date he was supposed to get sick, but the treatment was still incomplete (or even mishandled), and the virus attacked again during the fight with 19.

Explanation 2: The virus is somehow triggered by heavy emotional distress. In the original timeline, Mecha Freeza may have killed people dear to Goku before he arrived (and knowing Goku, even one city is enough to anger him). In our present timeline, the virus only gave him a heart attack after seeing Gero destroy a neighbourhood and kill Yamcha.

Both of them are merely speculative, and run on Hollywood Medicine, but they're something. I like filling in blanks, anyway.

edited 20th Feb '15 4:02:46 PM by JonnasN

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#9590: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:05:43 PM

[up][up][up][up]What does Nail have to do with it?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9591: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:06:01 PM

The first is wrong, it was said Goku hadn't taken the medicine yet since the symptoms hadn't appeared.

It's also extremely unlikely in the second since Goku would have arrived at the battlefield before Trunks originally. Trunks intervened because Goku was overdue, Goku was overdue because he had sensed Trunks' ki and decided to hold off and see what Trunks would do.

So without Trunks being present, Goku teleports down and schools both with no effort.

edited 20th Feb '15 4:06:27 PM by Saiga

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#9592: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:15:55 PM

I thought Trunks knew exactly when Goku was supposed to arrive? Something about knowing how many hours they had to wait for him?

edited 20th Feb '15 4:16:22 PM by JonnasN

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#9593: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:21:45 PM

Well, in one timeline Gero seemingly wasn't an android probably.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9594: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:34:48 PM

[up][up] For his ship, yes.

What Trunks didn't know is that Goku could teleport out of his pod to confront Freeza. Goku explains to him that he would've done that if not for Trunks.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9595: Feb 20th 2015 at 4:49:48 PM

[up](x5) Cute.

I was going to add, I presume 16 might be another key factor. By having him around, 17 and 18 had a Morality Pet. 16 seemed to have a genuine respect for life, so maybe he would've talked them out of abusing their powers.

In the future timeline, while we don't know what the first battle with the Androids was like or if the Z-Fighters made it to Gero's lab, we don't see 16 with 17 and 18, and since he's stronger than the two of them, it doesn't make any sense that he wouldn't still be around - so he probably wasn't released.

So 16 is probably a factor too.

The first is wrong, it was said Goku hadn't taken the medicine yet since the symptoms hadn't appeared. It's also extremely unlikely in the second since Goku would have arrived at the battlefield before Trunks originally. Trunks intervened because Goku was overdue, Goku was overdue because he had sensed Trunks' ki and decided to hold off and see what Trunks would do.

I meant to rewatch those episodes. Couldn't remember why Goku was still affected.

"Let me not take the medicine that's supposed to save my life from the mysterious disaease that kills me in the future. Let me wait until the exact moment I start having chest pains."

"Oh no, Frieza's on Earth! I have to stop him! Wait, what's that kid doing here? Huh. Let me wait and see what he does first."

edited 20th Feb '15 4:56:53 PM by FOFD

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9596: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:22:48 PM

Yeah. The Doylist answer for why everything Trunks knows is wrong is the repeated revisions made to the plot. For a Watsonian answer, we get a cheap Hand Wave about how the very act of time travel itself changed the timeline, so it's not even For Want Of A Nail. Things don't happen reasonably differently due to the butterfly effect; even things that should be completely unaffected happen differently because they just f*cking do.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:23:07 PM by TobiasDrake

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9597: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:25:22 PM

[up][up] Not taking medicine when you don't know you're sick is a very very good idea. Not only would you be wasting medicine if you're not sick, but it's a good idea not to take any sort of medication you don't need due to possible side effects.

[up] Is time travel distorting history any more unbelievable than time travel being time travel? It might be lazy, but it's also an answer that can cover anything without plot hole. Which is pretty important when you're being talked into making last minute changes.

For Want Of A Nail can be involved as well, anyway. The idea of time travel throwing off the timing of Goku's virus sounds pretty plausible to me. So if the other changes are all related to time distortion (Gero being ready to go forward with 19 and 20 sooner, Gero delaying shutting down 16, whatever else) that works just fine and I'd say is more interesting than most For Want Of A Nail changes.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:30:10 PM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9598: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:29:30 PM

  • GOHAN: Oh, hi Trunks.
  • TRUNKS: ...uh...hi? You were expecting me?
  • GOHAN: Yeah. You came back from your ruined apocalypse future to tell us it's time for Dad to start taking the medicine you gave him, didn't you?
  • TRUNKS: No, actually, I came back to warn you not to have him take it until symptoms start showing up.
  • GOHAN: Wait, you're not the Trunks that gave him the medicine?
  • TRUNKS: No, but that certainly explains a lot.
  • GOHAN: Then what happened—
  • TRUNKS: Cancer. Taking medication without an illness to treat is bad for your health.

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9599: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:53:03 PM

-shrug- Either way, waiting until you have a heart attack to take "heart attack medicine" doesn't seem very smart. I guess they didn't call it a "vaccine" did they?

The blame at least falls to Trunks, who should've had some information on when and how Goku got sick. Maybe Bulma didn't remember, but you're telling me that Gohan/Chi-Chi/none of Goku's friends did?

You can only not fault someone if time travel meddled with the date, but then, what actually caused Goku to contract the disease? In one timeline, he caught it before the Androids even showed up. In this timeline, he catches it mid-battle, and nobody else does.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:58:59 PM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9600: Feb 20th 2015 at 5:57:31 PM

I do recall that Trunks told him not to take it until the symptoms came. They never came, so he never took it.

And Yeah, I can believe that then act of Time Travelling itself might alter things in ways we can't see. Remember, that Cell was already around for a whole year before Trunks arrived.

I never considered that Goku sensed Trunks when the latter arrived. It makes sense though. He quite possibly sensed Trunks' true power even before he started really showing what he could do.

Remember, he assumed either Piccolo or Vegeta had stepped up and finished things.

The one thing I'm wondering about now is, if Goku used Instant Transmission to arrive on the planet in time, how did Trunks have any records of when he landed (since he wouldn't have used his ship)? Unless in the Trunks Timeline, Goku got to earth first and still landed on the planet.

edited 20th Feb '15 5:57:42 PM by HandsomeRob

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