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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#8176: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:36:04 AM

People like Freeza because he's voiced by Little Kuriboh, though Cell has been gaining popularity due to his callbacks and general horrorlarious demeanor.

Wait, was I talking about the abridged series? Sorry for going off topic.

I have a message from another time...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8177: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:45:31 AM

[up][up] He wasn't really losing all the times he transformed, not even against Piccolo. But that just makes it worse.

Cell does the fall into the same problem of running out of transformations, than just ignoring that and powering up more anyway. In both cases, the worst part of this is that these power ups end up being more significant than the actual transformations. Freeza doesn't change in power as much from transforming as he does just upping the % in his final form, which is especially silly when the transformations were meant to allow him to control his power. He really should've either had transformations or the ability to alter his power freely, both are unnecessary.

Also, one point in Freeza's favour is that he never gets as pants on head as Cell does upon absorbing both Androids. That dude worked way harder than anyone else to see Cell defeated.

Still can't say I prefer Freeza over Perfect Cell, and Imperfect Cell is amazing.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8178: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:59:12 AM

Well, Cell IS made from Vegeta and Freeza and Goku. His very nature is a horrible combination of overpowering arrogance and a thirst for battle.

Plus, look at it existentially. What is Cell's purpose after becoming Perfect? Becoming Perfect WAS his purpose. It's literally all he has known or thought about since his birth. It was programmed into his very being. You could look at his actions upon becoming Perfect as the first truly independent notions he has had. It's the first time he's taking control of how his life is directed. Naturally you're going to make some mistakes when you start out on your own.

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8179: Oct 27th 2014 at 6:10:42 AM

I found Buu to be more boring than any other villain.

edited 27th Oct '14 6:10:51 AM by GethKnight

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8180: Oct 27th 2014 at 6:15:44 AM

Yeah but that doesn't really account for his actions. Goku and Vegeta combined, over the course of the series, couldn't out stupid Cell. Vegeta gets a lot of flak (rightfully so) for listening to Cell and letting him absorb 18, but Cell doesn't even need someone to appeal to his ego - he goes out of his way to pull that situation on himself, twice and is only saved by factors outside of his control.

It's pretty sad that he takes a ploy he himself used and should realize is dumd to follow, then spring it on himself with no-one else needing to influence him. He saw Trunks and Vegeta's growth in one day, and decided to give them ten more without being prompted. If it weren't for the two day restriction he would be soooo fucked.

Then upon hearing about Gohan's hidden power, he immediately decides it's a good idea to let that be a thing even when Gohan thinks it's a terrible idea. And he only gets out of that because he miraculously survives self destruction and gets a power up, which only lasts until Vegeta distracts him. Which brings us back to the end of his fight with Goku, where he's exhausted, tells Goku to eat a Senzu and then gang up on him with everybody. But one assist from Vegeta was enough to turn the tide sgainst a much stronger Cell, fighting against a single greviously injured opponent. He would have been massacred in a five on one while exhausted.

DamascaRamza (Ancient one)
#8181: Oct 27th 2014 at 7:06:45 AM

Stuff like that makes me wonder if Dragon Ball Z was secretly a deconstruction of the Blood Knight, since it's the thirst for battle that makes things so much worse during the series.

So, who can't wait for Cell's later forms to appear in DBZA?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8182: Oct 27th 2014 at 7:58:15 AM

I'll add that another bonus of putting the Androids before Frieza is that it gives Goku et al more time to work their way up to him.

Over the course of six days, Goku goes from putting up a good fight against Vegeta but ultimately losing, to effortlessly demolishing the four strongest warriors in the entire universe barring Frieza himself. Putting another storyarc in the middle of that while Vegeta's off in space recuperating from his defeat would help mitigate the writer's need to horrifically abuse zenkai on Namek to get Goku into fighting shape.

There are a lot of flaws in the idea of moving the Android Saga anywhere, but personally, I would say that there are a lot of flaws with the Android Saga itself in general, so it's hard to say what would really "fix" it.

I guess the place to start would be connecting it to the Red Ribbon Army. No, slapping their logo on things isn't good enough. Dr. Gero is not a Red Ribbon Army character. He never demonstrates any connection to the RR and their goals despite his ostensible objective of avenging their defeat, he was never mentioned or even alluded to in the Red Ribbon arc, he's not even properly theme-named. His sole connection to the RR is that they had an android of unspecified origin.

Giving Dr. Gero a stronger connection to the Red Ribbon Army - by which I mean literally any connection at all would be stronger - would prevent his motivations for creating killer androids to murder Goku in retribution for their defeat from falling flat. And as Dr. Gero is the only villain who even has a motivation at all in this arc - the rest just killing things and threatening the Earth because that's what villains do, even when there's no good reason to do so; even Cell falls into this trap once he achieves his Perfect Form, fulfills his motivation, and is left desperately reaching for an excuse to still be the bad guy - his motivation is critical.

edited 27th Oct '14 8:04:43 AM by TobiasDrake

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8183: Oct 27th 2014 at 8:03:06 AM

Just want to point out Goku after three years of training with Kami and Popo only gained like, 100 in terms of PL. Krillin, Yamcha and Tien went from weaker than King Piccolo to stronger than Raditz in a single year. That's a jump of about 1,000.

Power Inflation is a thing for everyone. it's just that power inflation for the others doesn't matter.

edited 27th Oct '14 8:03:41 AM by Nikkolas

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8184: Oct 27th 2014 at 8:09:10 AM

[up]They all started with power levels over 200, had more of their basics covered than kid Goku at that start, and had multiple people in the same tier of power to train with. This lends itself to them getting much stronger than Goku did.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8185: Oct 27th 2014 at 9:02:27 AM

Freeza's just boring and I don't know why anyone likes him. The fact people are so in love with him and shit on Cell utterly boggles my mind.

"Hello, I'm Space-Napo-Hitler."

For the record, I like Majin Buu more than Cell or Frieza.

DevilPsyco from The Underworld (pretty deep down in the ground) Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
#8186: Oct 27th 2014 at 10:27:43 AM

I'm gonna miss Imperfect Cell when he transforms.

According to some calculations I made, he should have about two to three episodes left until it happens. One in which he's still hunted and faces Krillin on the plane, One in which Piccolo fights Cyborg 17, which will most likely end with Cell showing up at the cliff and the last one where he fights Cyborgs 16 and 17 and absorbs 17, probably ending with a shot of Semi Perfect Cell. Then he will most likely have two episodes until he absorbs Cyborg 18 too. Then he becomes Perfect Cell. I heard a rumor he'd be a bit like Alucard. I hope that's true since that would be awesome.

In the year 202X, all is devastation... Soon, any last shred of hope had by the saintliest optimist shall die and decay.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8187: Oct 27th 2014 at 11:17:20 AM

faces Krillin on the plane

...was that a filler episode or something? Because this never happened in the manga.

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DevilPsyco from The Underworld (pretty deep down in the ground) Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
#8188: Oct 27th 2014 at 11:28:26 AM

Yup. That was filler. However, TFS talked about that scene at a convention so surely they'll do something with it. Besides, it gives Krillin a hero moment because, while he loses to Cell, he is able to save a woman and her child. I assume Krillin will reveal to Cell that he killed his main time self.

edited 27th Oct '14 11:29:31 AM by DevilPsyco

In the year 202X, all is devastation... Soon, any last shred of hope had by the saintliest optimist shall die and decay.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#8189: Oct 27th 2014 at 12:07:05 PM

i hope he still manages to save the kid and woman.cause while him ditching them would be funny,even Yamcha didnt do that stuff. tongue

DevilPsyco from The Underworld (pretty deep down in the ground) Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
#8190: Oct 27th 2014 at 12:10:56 PM

He probably will. I can't imagine TFS changing Krillin like that just because he fell in love with Cyborg 18. In the original he was also already in love while he saved them so I see no reason as to why he wouldn't do it.

Although... knowing TFS... they might add in the scene with Cell chasing them in the beginning again at the end, like he found them after they fled and absorbs them anyways. I wouldn't put it past them to make Cell even darker than he already is.

edited 27th Oct '14 12:16:42 PM by DevilPsyco

In the year 202X, all is devastation... Soon, any last shred of hope had by the saintliest optimist shall die and decay.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8191: Oct 27th 2014 at 1:22:21 PM

The Saiyans don't have an arc. They're mostly dead, and Goku/Gohan don't give a shit - hell, when Vegeta dies Goku says he hates him, and he says the Saiyans deserved to die. So it's really just Vegeta, who doesn't get any sort of closure with Freeza.

Compare Man Of Steel, which established a major arc with Krypton that the main character had no context for and didn't particularly care about - Superman had no real connection to Zod or the death of Krypton, but his defeat of Zod was still presented as a symbolic death/redemption of Krypton's legacy.

In DBZ, there's far too much Arc Welding for there not so be a similar case - which is to say that even though they were established after the fact, those similar connections are still evident and ultimately part of the greater plot. Rail at calling it an arc, or themes, or a backstory, or make whatever semantic adjustments to how it's referred to - they still exist.

Likewise, a main character doesn't have to be emotionally invested character in an arc to be important to it (The Fool and similar tropes exist for a reason), they don't have to be the most emotionally invested character in an arc to be the linchpin of it (especially in serial series where the hero has a lot of adventures), and they don't even have to receive closure to an arc for that closure (or even merely the connection made) to exist, however major or minor, for the audience. The fact that Goku is part of something great that he not only has no context for, but has no wish to have context for ultimately becomes part of the point - it's one of the main ironies of the Bardock special, for instance.

edited 27th Oct '14 1:26:41 PM by KnownUnknown

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8192: Oct 27th 2014 at 2:43:03 PM

The website says 67% done with the next episode. Should be the end of the week, right?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#8193: Oct 27th 2014 at 3:46:42 PM

Probably not that soon.

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DamascaRamza (Ancient one)
#8194: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:15:34 PM

Editting's at 83% now, so late this week or sometime next week is my best bet on when the new episode'll come out. I have to admire Kaiser's dedication to editting.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8195: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:32:30 PM

He also has some positions I really don't agree with. (Was arguing with him earlier today which is why it's fresh in my mind, I'm not trying to diss him or anything) He thinks MEREDITH Mc Coy (the original voice-actress of Android Eighteen from Z) was bad and I just can't understand that. He also dislikes Stephanie Nadolny but that at least is an opinion I can understand, even if I don't agree with it.

edited 27th Oct '14 5:33:03 PM by Nikkolas

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#8197: Oct 27th 2014 at 8:02:30 PM

They said they'd be premiering something at a convention which is either this weekend or the next.

DevilPsyco from The Underworld (pretty deep down in the ground) Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
#8198: Oct 28th 2014 at 3:55:11 AM

That's probably Hellsing Abridged Episode 5. Should be out around that time.

In the year 202X, all is devastation... Soon, any last shred of hope had by the saintliest optimist shall die and decay.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8199: Oct 28th 2014 at 4:27:40 AM

Compare Man of Steel, which established a major arc with Krypton that the main character had no context for and didn't particularly care about - Superman had no real connection to Zod or the death of Krypton, but his defeat of Zod was still presented as a symbolic death/redemption of Krypton's legacy.

But that's a single movie, whereas Freeza is the villain for one arc. Dragon Ball is simply too large for him to be relevant to the whole series.

In DBZ, there's far too much Arc Welding for there not so be a similar case - which is to say that even though they were established after the fact, those similar connections are still evident and ultimately part of the greater plot. Rail at calling it an arc, or themes, or a backstory, or make whatever semantic adjustments to how it's referred to - they still exist.

There is hardly any Arc Welding, and what there is simply doesn't work due to contradicting the only other arc it relates to. Two arcs are poorly, and inadequately, connected. That's about it. The biggest things that stick to other parts of the series are Goku's Saiyan heritage, which doesn't really require Freeza at all, and Super Saiyan, which immediately turned into something completely different to the "warrior of legend" destined to usurp Freeza.

I'll add that another bonus of putting the Androids before Frieza is that it gives Goku et al more time to work their way up to him.

Over the course of six days, Goku goes from putting up a good fight against Vegeta but ultimately losing, to effortlessly demolishing the four strongest warriors in the entire universe barring Frieza himself. Putting another storyarc in the middle of that while Vegeta's off in space recuperating from his defeat would help mitigate the writer's need to horrifically abuse zenkai on Namek to get Goku into fighting shape.

There wasn't too huge a difference between the Ginyus and Vegeta, though. And that's a problem that could easily be solved by having Goku depart early and not complete the trip in only 6 days. Then if Freeza doesn't escalate as much, he doesn't need a huge zenkai to be relevant there. If Freeza does escalate as much from the Ginyus nothing before that point is going to fix that.

I think Piccolo probably should've been the one to take out the Ginyus. You'd have to rearrange the wishes and whatnot but he'd get to actually do something that arc, and Goku wouldn't arrive only to immediately be put of commission because he's still too weak. Have Goku arrive at the Freeza battle and be able to keep up because of the brand spanking new 100x gravity training rather than because he got beat up. I actually like the zenkai concept but it'd be pretty easy to write Namek without it, and it does present a few logical problems.

Anyway, the name thing with Gero isn't something I find significant. It was done by Toriyama not to establish things but because he has difficulty coming up with names. He had his own name for Gero so he didn't need to fall back on it. Although his name might actually be a pun/corruption of Grey, the Japanese pronunciation is of both Gero and Grey make them sound closer than they are in English, and Toriyama is also pretty poor at English.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8200: Oct 28th 2014 at 8:59:09 AM

Goku still needed a pretty huge zenkai to get up to the Ginyus. His Gravity Training and Senzu Bean spamming lets him take it in multiple bursts, but still, he had to grow from 8,000 to 90,000, then use the Kaioken to bring him to 180,000, in order to surpass Captain Ginyu's 120,000.

It's overshadowed by Goku's much more extreme jump to 3,000,000 in order to compete with Frieza, but it's still pretty ridiculous.

Otherwise, I agree that having Piccolo and/or Nail fight the Ginyus would make better use of both their characters and Goku's. I add Nail into that because I feel he didn't really get to do much at all before being slaughtered by Frieza, and it would be difficult to put his curbstomp and subsequent fusion with Piccolo prior to the Ginyu battle, while still accounting for the Namekian wish to bring back Piccolo.

edited 28th Oct '14 9:01:01 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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