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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#8151: Oct 24th 2014 at 10:30:56 AM

[up]Piccolo wasn't even a match for Frieza's second form if I remember correctly. He was holding back and as soon as he stopped Piccolo lost his advantage. Piccolo tried to get the advantage again by just transforming, which worked for awhile in the anime, but in the manga he didn't even get a chance to attack again before Frieza went third form on his ass and almost killed him.

Speaking of which, most of these fights seem terrible in the manga. I haven't read most of it, so maybe they're better, but Frieza vs Piccolo was way too short to actually be enjoyable.

edited 24th Oct '14 10:46:03 AM by LSBK

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#8152: Oct 24th 2014 at 12:07:54 PM

Frieza got a couple of good licks on Piccolo, but Piccolo certainly wasn't worried at that point. He seemed confident that taking off his clothes would give him the edge again, and Piccolo was usually pretty good about not getting overconfident.

And I prefer brief, pointed fights when the plot has places to go and people to see. Given that Piccolo vs. 2nd form Frieza was just one phase of an extended fight, I don't see the problem with it not being very long.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8153: Oct 24th 2014 at 12:56:20 PM

@Tobias: All the way back to the 21st Tournament, Roshi's training amounted to "get stronger." He didn't teach Goku or Krillin any martial arts techniques or fighting moves, he just made them strong. I recall very pointedly in the anime at least one of the fighters Goku went up against observed that Goku's stance left him wide open and vulnerable in al areas. That's because Goku didn't know how to fight - just clobber you really hard and fast.

DB and DBZ fights are like if The Hulk was given a sword to fight Kenshin Himura. Sure, Kenshin is way more skilled with it but The Hulk would just make Kenny into a pancake anyway. Power trumps skill and ability pretty much every time.

Goku only beat Frieza because he got a powerup that made him stronger than Freeza.

Gohan only beat Cell because he got a powerup that made him stronger than Cell.

And teh Buu Saga...well, Buu is just a load of bullshit because botH Gohan and Vegeto COULD have defeated Buu but the Plot made them hold back. Point is, I really don't see where you are getting "the Android Saga made it all worse." The Android and Cell Saga didn't do anything that hadn't been done before in that regard. It did have a wonderfully dark and twisted tone to it though. It's why Cell is a much more intimidating villain than Freeza ever was.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8154: Oct 24th 2014 at 1:13:56 PM

[up]I thought that Freeza was actually stronger than SS Goku, if only slightly.

I'm also pretty sure that Cell was actually winning against Gohan after he self-destructed and regenerated, until Gohan got some moral support from the afterlife.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#8155: Oct 24th 2014 at 1:24:51 PM

[up]Well with Cell/Gohan, there's also the factor that Gohan was fighting with the disadvantage of his arm being crippled. tongue

As far as Frieza being stronger. I dunno, they did imply that he took too much of beating before he started fighting at his full power, but then again I dunno if that was a change from Manga-to-Anime.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8156: Oct 24th 2014 at 1:25:49 PM

[up][up][up] Roshi's training was about getting stronger, yes, but the actual tournament proper certainly wasn't. Clever use of the Kinto'un, Goku flying by spinning his tail, and Master Roshi propelling himself with the Kamehameha kept fighters from being rung out. Krillin defeated an insurmountable adversary by abusing a flaw in the artwork, Roshi defeated the unstoppable Oozaru by blowing up the moon and depriving it of its power source, and the ultimate deciding factor of the tournament was Roshi taking advantage of his naturally larger body-size and baiting Goku into falling for it.

Goku had three masters prior to Raditz's arrival on Earth. Roshi taught him to weight-train, Karin taught him to predict his enemy's movements, and Popo taught him to sense energy. All three of these are contributing factors to his successes, as well as his own natural Saiyan ability to analyze and reproduce fighting styles and techniques, and his tactical prowess in using all of the above effectively.

[up][up] Frieza's Full Power is 120,000,000, compared to Super Saiyan Goku's 150,000,000; Goku's base 3,000,000 amplified by the 50x Super Saiyan multiplier.

On top of that, much like Super Saiyan 3, Frieza's 100% Full Power is a terrible form that bleeds energy like a gaping wound. Frieza admits to this when he first explains his transformations, pointing out that unlike other transforming characters, his transformations reduce his power level rather than increase it, because his full power is too great for him to reliably control it. Goku tries to quit the fight when he realizes that Frieza has bled so much power as to no longer have any hope of winning, but Frieza refuses to let him.

edited 24th Oct '14 1:28:54 PM by TobiasDrake

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Medigo03 Since: Sep, 2013
#8157: Oct 25th 2014 at 11:03:15 AM

even at 100 % the attacks Frieza landed on Goku didnt seem to do any lasting damage

Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
Werefox
#8158: Oct 25th 2014 at 11:48:44 PM

If I would say one thing I don't think Cell and and the Androids should have been a massive step above Freeza.

You look happy, I can change that if you want.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8159: Oct 26th 2014 at 6:53:45 AM

I don't think they should have happened before Frieza at all. Cell and the Androids would fit perfectly between Piccolo Daimao and Raditz.

They wouldn't have been able to reduce all combat in the series to finding the best Super Saiyan form to raise the characters' power levels high enough to win a glorified arm-wrestling match, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

edited 26th Oct '14 6:54:45 AM by TobiasDrake

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KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#8160: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:08:48 AM

[up] What would that have done for Gohan, though?

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8161: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:10:01 AM

Forced him to have his Crowning Moment Of Awesome as Ultimate Gohan in the Buu Saga rather than shining for one brief moment before tapering off into uselessness.

edited 26th Oct '14 7:12:48 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#8162: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:11:21 AM

Fair enough. But then how do they resolve the Cell saga? Come to think of it, what do they do with Trunks and Vegeta?

Oh God! Natural light!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8163: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:12:58 AM

Let me answer that question with a question:

What did Cell do for Gohan? No, I don't mean the arc. I mean Cell, specifically. People laud Gohan finally achieving his full potential as part of the reason why the Cell Saga was great, but what part of that was actually about Cell? In what way was the character of Cell the climax of Gohan's personal storyline? How was he the personalized villain most suited to bringing Gohan's arc to its most satisfying possible conclusion, the same way Frieza was the annihilator of Goku's entire race, the reason why he was sent to Earth, why no one ever came for him for decades; the ultimate cause of Goku's entire origin.

Why is Cell, specifically, deserving of the title of Gohan's ultimate nemesis?

edited 26th Oct '14 7:14:16 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#8164: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:53:09 AM

Symbolic in a different way. Cell was EVERY major adversary Goku faced, incluiding himself, integrated into a single being. Goku fights him, then gives up knowing he cannot best him, and then Gohan does it, surpassing his father by besting every single enemy he has faced at once.

Cell was manufactured by the renmants of the Red Ribbon Army, and is made up of Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza and the Androids, plus Goku himself (and, if you stretch it, also Yamcha, Krillin and Tenshinhan). He makes sense after Freeza, mostly because he gets his power from Freeza, as well as Super Saiyans and a Namekian quite close to them. The androids? Not quite.

Then again, Mecha Freeza was quite crude in design, but stated to be stronger than the original deal. And the Briefs family seemed to have incredible shounen science powers, while Gero was their evil counterpart.

Still awkward to have the 16-19 artificial people at the power levels they were. Cell made sense due to Freeza, the others didn't.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8165: Oct 26th 2014 at 8:22:59 AM

We can only assume that years of studying the Ki abilities of the numerous Z Warriors must have helped Gero create some impressive energy producing batteries or something.

It's pretty crazy, but this is world where you can put entire houses in tiny capsules, so I can deal with it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8166: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:26:39 PM

The problem with the Androids is that thy come after the real problem: Freeza. Many people can't accept him being surpassed, but there's literally no reason given for him being so powerful. Literally 1,000 times stronger than his highest henchman. Hundreds of thousands of times stronger than Gods. All that's ever said of him in the series is that he's an alien, but so are a whole slew of characters who don't hold a candle to him. That includes a race that were famous for their powerful fighters, who are all utterly insignificant against Freeza. Tone down the utterly insane escalation of Freeza, the Androids don't need to be anywhere near as strong. Just the idea of robots/cyborgs being stronger than a powerful alien isn't flawed.

I also think the Android arc pre-Raditz would work extremely poorly. What would Cell be made of, just Piccolo and Goku? Throw in the humans? What a waste of a biological mash up character. What do you do with Piccolo's fusion with God? Keep it and make it super insignificant in the larger picture? Cut it? Shoehorn it somewhere else? Probably the best option, but it won't be any better in the Saiyan arc, would be incredibly hard to fit in the Namek arc, and wouldn't do shit in the Boo arc.

Then you lose Trunks and Gohan from the arc, who both had big roles, and lose the exploration of the Super Saiyan forms - one of the best things of the arc, because it fleshed out the forms beyond the Deus ex Machina it was in the Namek arc.

There's no benefit to it beyond reducing the Android's power which can more eadily be achieved by not making things snowball out of control in the Freeza arc. Anything following that mess would be absurd.

edited 26th Oct '14 7:39:41 PM by Saiga

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#8167: Oct 26th 2014 at 7:49:54 PM

I think what I'd do is keep Cell where he is, but move the androids pre-Raditz. Cell being as strong as he is is kind of okay since he's partially Freeza, it's just the androids that break suspension of disbelief

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#8168: Oct 26th 2014 at 8:12:06 PM

The androids were fine where they are. Science can do interesting things.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#8169: Oct 26th 2014 at 8:44:38 PM

Magic science.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8170: Oct 26th 2014 at 11:13:58 PM

Saiga raises an interesting point; Freeza probably was too strong. I don't know how much it would help to nerf him, though.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8171: Oct 27th 2014 at 12:12:03 AM

Because of the way power levels work, simply nerfing the characters probably wouldn't amount to much. I'd assume the Androids moved to before the Freeza saga wouldn't change how effective they were or anything, because as main antagonists (if Cell didn't join them) or even to be threats at all, they would have to have the same strength in comparison to the protagonists. The Androids would still be perceived as very powerful, because at the time their power advantage would be as immense as it was initially.

On the other hand, the reason Freeza's level of power is difficult to really alter in the same way lies both in the way his abilities work and his narrative role. I could see him being rearranged to become more powerful, but not less.

He's the Big Bad of the Saiyans' arc and - at the time that he was conceived - the whole galaxy, so the Saiyans (who would still be introduces as threats to the protagonists), the Saiyans' rivals in Freeza's ranks and all of his elite troops would have to be much weaker than himself, and also a threat to the protagonists when they show up.

His powers, likewise, are difficult to nerf for a similar reasons as to why the androids' probably wouldn't be - he not only has to be that much more powerful than the protagonists when they initially meet, but unless they drastically alter him he has to have a form many shades more powerful than that, and another more powerful than that, and so forth and then a buffed version of the last. All of those escalate the stakes drastically, and so no matter where he appears he will up the level of power in the series considerably, as every time the characters become strong enough to fend him off he must reveal that there is a power that goes even beyond that, four times. And then again for the main characters to defeat him.

I suppose if the series were to be rearranged, a progression of Vegeta -> Androids/Cell -> Freeza -> Buu. That would give Freeza more retention of a "Big Bad" role given a built-up that lasts the entire series, and who thus becomes that much more deadly because of how much it takes to reach him. Cell, especially if more focus is given to him as the culmination of Goku's earlier exploits, would be a force inbetween the Big Bad's introduction and the final confrontation that shakes up the heroes' ranks. And with Freeza emphasized as Big Bad, Buu would be seen as this ancient horror that's even more powerful than the being we've been told time and again for so long was the entire most powerful being in the galaxy.

(Funnily enough, it's kind of an Avengers progression: Vegeta as Loki, Cell as Ultron, Freeza as Thanos and Buu as, say, whoever Dr. Strange's biggest enemy is going to be (Dormammu or Shuma or whoever))

Not that I have any problem whatsoever with the progression as it is initially (though I wish Freeza, who is imo still the most effective narrative threat in the series, didn't get overshadowed to the point of being almost a joke by the end) were - the Androids being after Freeza didn't break my suspension of disbelief at all, as at that point the series had introduced well enough to me that when manipulating energy in unique ways characters could do insane things coupled with the fact that the androids didn't do so the same way as the normal characters.

edited 27th Oct '14 12:13:09 AM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8172: Oct 27th 2014 at 1:43:58 AM

Freeza's easy to change - there is simply such a large power gap between him and everyone else that you wouldn't have to change the plot at all to reduce the massive power inflation. At most you would need to change the Kaio-ken and Super Saiyan multipliers, but Toriyama straight up admits he wanted Super Saiyan to be 1/5th as strong as he needed to make it to beat Freeza (incidentally, the original 10x boost would match Oozaru exactly, so I think it'd be fitting if it was reduced to this).

Although I can't say altering the plot of the Freeza arc would be a bad idea because then one could actually make room for Piccolo to accomplish something with his fusion - it's nice that he went toe to toe with Freeza's second form but that was completely meaningless when Freeza immediately transformed and made things worse for everybody.

Also, Freeza isn't the Big Bad of the Saiyan arc. He doesn't exist in the Saiyan arc, Vegeta is outright said to be the strongest in the universe and his introduction is a massive retcon. Saiyan > Freeza is one of the least smooth transitions in the series.

I think you're really overstating his narrative role, he's really not very different to Vegeta in Vegeta's introduction. I kind of wonder if Z being aired in most western countries first contributes to this, but in the context of the manga he really doesn't stick out too much. Even when used as a measuring stick, that's true for every major villain.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8173: Oct 27th 2014 at 1:53:59 AM

Freeza isn't the Big Bad of the Saiyan Saga, (that's Vegeta) but he is the Big Bad of the Saiyans' arc. Controlled them for years, destroyed their homeworld, enslaved the survivors to the point where the previous villain - who he supplants - ends up helping the heroes in a self-centered bid to overthrow him. It's the entire point of the whole destiny angle of a Super Saiyan defeating him.

The fact that the initial characters weren't initially written with his existence in mind doesn't change the narrative position he's given after the plotline is fully developed - especially in regards to things like Vegeta's personality. And while I don't know about Toriyama's schedule or how much of a buffer zone he gave himself while writing the series, if he's typical then he probably had the basic idea of who Freeza was going to be and how Vegeta's arc was going to segue into his long before the end of the Saiyan saga.

edited 27th Oct '14 1:59:23 AM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8174: Oct 27th 2014 at 4:45:42 AM

The Saiyans don't have an arc. They're mostly dead, and Goku/Gohan don't give a shit - hell, when Vegeta dies Goku says he hates him, and he says the Saiyans deserved to die. So it's really just Vegeta, who doesn't get any sort of closure with Freeza. Yeah there's a self fulfilling prophecy with him losing to the Super Saiyan but that doesn't make an arc, or any greater narrative significance in the series' whole.

Every detail of the Saiyan arc contradicts the idea that Toriyama had Freeza in mind. There are absolutely no hints or foreshadowing toward Freeza, Vegeta thinks he's the strongest in the universe - and no, this isn't his arrogance, as after Freeza et al are introduced he freely admits his inferiority to them, plus he's thinking this so it wouldn't make sense - the Saiyans are established as working on their own, Vegeta wants immortality for reasons that have nothing to do with Freeza, and Planet Vegeta has a different reason behind its destruction. Only the last is given an explanation, everything else is ignored.

Toriyama freely admits to writing on the seat of his pants and this is the most obvious case, because just about every detail of the arc is contradicted by Freeza's introduction and it's all just swept under the rug. The trip to Namek was almost definitely planned due to Vegeta's line hinting to Dragon Balls on Namek and Piccolo dying, but there's simply no reason to think Freeza was and every reason to think he wasn't. The narrative position he was given after the plot was simply "another arc villain". Just being tied to the Saiyan race doesn't mean much when God's other half, Goku's brother, and someone sharing DNA with several of the main characters were all thrown under the bus.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8175: Oct 27th 2014 at 5:32:42 AM

Freeza's just boring and I don't know why anyone likes him.

OH NO! I'M LOSING! BETTER PULL OUT ANOTHER TRANSFORMATION!

I'M LOSING AGAIN! BETTER PULL OUT ANOTHER TRANSFORMATION!

OH NO! I'M OUTTA TRANSFORMATIONS! LUKCILY I'M ONLY USING 1% OF MY POWER SO I'LL JUST INCREASE IT TO 50% AND START WINNING AGAIN!

Freeza is the most lazy, unimaginative villain ever. The fact people are so in love with him and shit on Cell utterly boggles my mind. There is not one thing in which Cell is worse at than Freeza. He's got a more creative motivation, he's got a more creative way of getting stronger, his fights are more interesting....


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