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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8101: Oct 18th 2014 at 4:57:33 PM

You don't need to have a power level of eleventy billion to contribute. Krillin is the one that kept Gohan alive on Namek. Krillin had a large supporting role in the Cell Arc. Piccolo remains relevant all through Z, despite getting eclipsed in the Cell Arc. The only characters that just stick around doing nothing for a large portion of the story are Ten and Chiatzou.

If we subscribe to the idea that "power level = relevance," then Marky Mark Satan should have a power level higher than everyone else since he was the major contributing factor to the Spirit Bomb killing Pure Buu.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8102: Oct 18th 2014 at 5:05:06 PM

To be fair, that only happened because Goku suffered brain damage as a child and made a slew of bad decisions that arc: not stopping Fat Buu, letting Goten and Trunks do the fighting, not using IT to regroup with Gohan, not using IT to get out of Buu's body, saving Hercule instead of the others, crushing the Potara earrings, and giving Vegeta a shot at buu.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#8103: Oct 18th 2014 at 5:21:06 PM

[up] once again, Dragon Ball Minus says otherwise on the brain damage part. tongue

edited 18th Oct '14 5:21:37 PM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#8104: Oct 18th 2014 at 6:11:11 PM

I can't imagine Instant Transmission would work inside Buu. Or if it did, it'd risk not undoing the shrinking effect.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8105: Oct 18th 2014 at 6:59:38 PM

not stopping Fat Buu, letting Goten and Trunks do the fighting

Keep in mind that Goku was running on a strict time limit, and that Super Saiyan 3 ate through his time limit just as viciously as it later does Gotenks, because - and this cannot be stressed enough - Super Saiyan 3 is an awful, awful form. Goku wanted to put the Earth's defense in the hands of people with a bit more permanency, rather than trying to go All In on a once-and-for-all grudge match against Majin Buu where, if Goku fails to kill him, all hope for the fate of the world is lost, in which all Buu has to do is not die long enough for Goku's time to burn up and pop him back to the afterlife.

Using Super Saiyan 3 at all is a bad decision pretty much always, but in this case, trying to use it for the long haul to take down Majin Buu would have pretty much doomed the entire planet Earth.

not using IT to regroup with Gohan

When he thought he was dead, you mean?

not using IT to get out of Buu's body

Why would he? The entire plan revolved around getting inside Buu's body in the first place.

saving Hercule instead of the others

This one, I'll grant you. He acted on his gut rather than his brain, and his gut said, "People! Help them!"

crushing the Potara earrings

Yeah, while I still maintain that trying to fight Pure Buu as Vegetto would have ended in disaster for reasons that Saiga and I will have to agree to disagree on, but regardless of who is right on that matter, Goku didn't make this choice for that reason anyway. It was pure Saiyan stubbornness.

giving Vegeta a shot at buu.

He didn't mean to. He didn't account for the fact that, just like it eats up Fusion time and spirit On-Earth Time, Super Saiyan 3 also bleeds ki like crazy, to the point that trying to restore his energy while Vegeta bought time against Pure Buu wound up having the exact opposite effect, Super Saiyan 3 bled him dry and kicked him back out into Base. Goku genuinely thought that Super Saiyan 3 could defeat Pure Buu, but like Gotenks before him, was horrified to discover the hard way that Super Saiyan 3 is utter shit.

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8106: Oct 18th 2014 at 7:47:41 PM

Keep in mind that Goku was running on a strict time limit, and that Super Saiyan 3 ate through his time limit just as viciously as it later does Gotenks, because - and this cannot be stressed enough - Super Saiyan 3 is an awful, awful form. Goku wanted to put the Earth's defense in the hands of people with a bit more permanency, rather than trying to go All In on a once-and-for-all grudge match against Majin Buu where, if Goku fails to kill him, all hope for the fate of the world is lost, in which all Buu has to do is not die long enough for Goku's time to burn up and pop him back to the afterlife. Using Super Saiyan 3 at all is a bad decision pretty much always, but in this case, trying to use it for the long haul to take down Majin Buu would have pretty much doomed the entire planet Earth.

I think this falls into a gray area of "could Goku have killed Fat Buu at that time?" In the anime at least, he says that he might have, when facing Pure Buu. IIRC, he was in control for most of the animated version of that fight.

Even if Goku had exhausted his time limit, and while I doubt Baba would have interrupted the battle just to pull Goku out of there, Trunks and Goten were pretty much learning from Piccolo at that point - so wouldn'tit be worth the shot, to end the threat then and there if he could?

I mean, I like Goku's rationale for it, and it's a rationale I haven't seen any other male manga protagonist come up with. I suppose its the repercussions of his plan that downplay its uniqueness to me.

When he thought he was dead, you mean?

When he came back to life and went to save Gohan from Buu. First, he threw the earring at Gohan, rather than IT'ing over to him. He could've IT'd some distance with Gohan for safety, and not shouted his plan to Buu, which allowed Buu to blast the spot where Gohan lost the earring.

Why would he? The entire plan revolved around getting inside Buu's body in the first place.

IT locks onto energy signatures, so I would think Goku and Vegeta could've gone to Buu's brain with it (looking at the anime, the scenes where they had to fight Buu's organs and junk). Then, once they'd rescued them, rather than fight an uphill battle with Buu, use IT to teleport out.

This one, I'll grant you. He acted on his gut rather than his brain, and his gut said, "People! Help them!"

Ironically, this one I look at the lightest. Heat of the moment, stress catches up. If anything, it makes me wonder what Vegeta was doing since he apparently didn't attempt to grab anyone. Goku was their ride out of there, so what was Vegeta doing other than running?

He didn't mean to. He didn't account for the fact that, just like it eats up Fusion time and spirit On-Earth Time, Super Saiyan 3 also bleeds ki like crazy, to the point that trying to restore his energy while Vegeta bought time against Pure Buu wound up having the exact opposite effect, Super Saiyan 3 bled him dry and kicked him back out into Base. Goku genuinely thought that Super Saiyan 3 could defeat Pure Buu, but like Gotenks before him, was horrified to discover the hard way that Super Saiyan 3 is utter shit.

I guess? The anime version had him say something along the lines of, "Maybe I could have [beat Buu] when I was fresh, but I wanted to give you a fair shot."

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#8107: Oct 19th 2014 at 12:03:37 AM

Actually, could Goku use IT to transmit inside Buu's body after he has absorbed someone? Would it even be possible to IT out? He'd be locked on to a ki signature that he was already surrounded by. What size would he be if that worked?

Also, because I don't remember, how did they get out?

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8108: Oct 19th 2014 at 12:47:03 AM

Tien and Yamcha might have become irrelevant in Z but there is this little series called Dragonball that features them both quite prominently. For several arcs. Well, only 3 arcs in Tien's case but they were long arcs so he still got to stick around a lot.

Could always watch or read that. Some might even say it's better than DBZ. Crazy i know but those people exist.

edited 19th Oct '14 12:47:55 AM by Nikkolas

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8109: Oct 19th 2014 at 1:32:18 AM

[up][up] They left through one of the holes in Boo's body.

[up] When I said they became irrelevant quickly, I mean before Raditz showing up. Especially in Yamcha's case - what does he contribute after the debut arc? He gets needlessly worfed, and to make matters worse the worfing doesn't work because beating Yamcha doesn't prove anything.

Ten did get some relevance when he helped Piccolo in the Daimao fight. Then he proceeded to be a liability, but at least thanks to him Goku didn't lose his stick. Ten: expert lost-and-found officer. And then he curbstomps Tao, who is So Last Season even with his upgrades, and has Goku treat him like a child in their fight.

Whenever I talk about Dragon Ball, it is about the series as a whole, not one of two separate animated adaptations. The first part of the series is not unknown to many people at this point.

edited 19th Oct '14 1:33:03 AM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8110: Oct 19th 2014 at 5:58:00 AM

[up] That.

Yamcha was NEVER featured prominently outside the Pilaf arc. Krillin got more respect, storywise, pretty much from day one. Tien was barely even part of the group; he mostly just shows up to not do anything, a consummate spectator who spends most of his screentime just standing there, and then tends to contribute exactly one thing before f*cking off to god knows where.

Yamcha was typically only there to be a punching bag, and Tien was typically only there to remind us that he exists. Krillin and Bulma are the only humans that ever got to really do plot-relevant things and, even then, Bulma wasn't a fighter and Krillin was outpaced by Goku pretty fast. Goku overshadows everyone, not just the humans; Piccolo had to start abusing the most broken ability in the franchise to try and keep up, while Vegeta only kept up in his own mind.

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GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8111: Oct 19th 2014 at 6:05:47 AM

Maybe Tien's third eye is a camcorder and he's recording everything? When he vanishes, it's to upload everything for that world's version of You Tube.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#8112: Oct 19th 2014 at 6:19:55 AM

Tien gets two moments to shine in Z: Stalling Cell and deflecting one of Buu's blasts. Keep in mind that it is a human doing that.

Tien is the one that never stops trying to catch up. Guy is awesome due to that.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8113: Oct 19th 2014 at 6:29:01 AM

Some things are just obvious. For example, Krillin not beating Goku in the 22nd Tournament or Yamcha not beating Tien in the 22nd Tournament. It doesn't mean they can't be awesome while doing it. It's like complaining Father didn't win in FMAB. "But I wanted the villain to win!" Yeah, well, most series don't do that. And most series don't let non-Main Characters be the most important and most powerful.

A We've al talked about this topic before. I'm sorry but I think Yamcha and Krillin and Tien were all most awesome thanks to the World Martial Arts Tournaments/Tenkaichi Budokais. Those were times for them to display great talents or skills. In Z, all they did was stand around or run away or get killed. I'll take a fight they clearly can't win yet still make a cool accounting of themselves over any of that.

I also agree with the posts earlier that Z, and DB as a whole really, focused too much on Power Levels. I said in the main DB thread that DBZ has one of the most linear power structures ever. A can beat B which means they can beat C, D and E. Other series might be a bit more imaginative and give different characters different powersets. So the guy who can control an element or the one who's super fast or the one who's really strong can beat So-ajd-So but can't beat Such-and-Such because his powerset isn't suited for that. A rock of Rock-Papers-Scissors thing. Or you could give the secondary characters secondary antagonists to defeat. That's why you have things like the Akatsuki or Grimoire Heart or the Espada - everyone gets a turn to shine there, even if they aren't as strong as Naruto or Natsu or Ichigo.

DBZ never really had that and it's a shame. The only real Bad Guy Team in DB was the RR Army and Goku beat them all by himself.

edited 19th Oct '14 6:32:47 AM by Nikkolas

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#8114: Oct 19th 2014 at 11:48:34 AM

I finally listened to this full song yesterday.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#8115: Oct 20th 2014 at 7:13:10 PM

. . . . . . . well, we won't think any less of them for it.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#8116: Oct 20th 2014 at 8:50:54 PM

Alternate scene!

I really liked it.

edited 20th Oct '14 8:51:10 PM by wanderlustwarrior

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#8117: Oct 20th 2014 at 8:59:55 PM

"You know if you tell that to dad, it's just going to go in one ear, get bored, and die." [lol]

Also, what's that song they play in the background at the beginning and the end of the video?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8118: Oct 22nd 2014 at 9:58:43 PM

It odd, but I think it's really neat that they made Cell a fan of music in Abridged, and the kinds of music he likes: they're surprisingly... normal. It suddenly makes you remember that in addition to being a genocidal monster, he's also an Earthling, which is a weird thing to think for a character like him.

edited 22nd Oct '14 9:59:10 PM by KnownUnknown

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#8119: Oct 22nd 2014 at 9:59:30 PM

Everyone likes 1980s pop music. These are facts.

Oh really when?
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8120: Oct 22nd 2014 at 10:03:35 PM

On the other hand, I only know of most of the songs he name dropped at the end. tongue

edited 22nd Oct '14 10:03:43 PM by KnownUnknown

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#8121: Oct 22nd 2014 at 10:17:46 PM

Uh, you might wanna pay closer attention to the titles he picked.

  • Video Killed the Radio Star
  • Hungry Like the Wolf
  • Killing Me Softly With a Song
  • All By Myself (because he killed everyone)

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8122: Oct 22nd 2014 at 10:30:01 PM

Yeah, it's a sequence of events. He's narrating what he's about to do to the rest of the town.

edited 22nd Oct '14 10:30:21 PM by KnownUnknown

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#8123: Oct 22nd 2014 at 10:33:15 PM

Also, Weird Science is playing during the stinger

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#8124: Oct 22nd 2014 at 10:55:47 PM

Amusing that he requested Video Killed the Radio Star right before killing some radio stars. Does that mean Cell is a video?

Of course, doesn't change the fact that he's familiar with and presumably fond of the music itself, puns aside.

edited 22nd Oct '14 10:56:23 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8125: Oct 22nd 2014 at 11:21:21 PM

Of course Cell is a video. He's a character from a TV show.


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