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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8076: Oct 16th 2014 at 8:41:38 PM

The first Super Saiyan transformation would have been appropriate with more buildup. Every subsequent transformation was BS, with the last being the most insane BS imaginable.

I didn't even know it was possible to use those words together like that in a sentence.

Especially Super Saiyan 3, which is even worse than 4 simply for the fact that it has no real plot significance and seems only to be there to have another transformation and to handwave Goku leaving early.

Okay, fine, I'll drink to that. Still, there are moments of vocal excellence that simply cannot be ignored.

The Japanese are sexist, and this fact pervades into most of their media as well. News at 11.

I've heard that phrase brought up often lately, probably in regards to Bayonetta 2, but anime as well. My question being, it didn't bother me ten years ago, so why does it bother me now? Provided it's not Highschool Of The Dead or Naruto, female-male representation in anime/manga has never bugged me. Perhaps I don't read/watch enough of it, or the ones I do watch (Black Lagoon/Magical Index) have left me complacement.

TFS did make a joke in Lord Slug Abridged, though, about Chi-Chi that really made me question it.

Dragonball reboot

I've rarely thought about what I'd changed. I mean, fan fiction, sure, but a financed reboot? The only things I'd change are how the films interact with the main timeline, and boost Goku's decision-making skills.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8077: Oct 16th 2014 at 8:51:29 PM

I remember the point where I stopped caring about SS 3 entirely - when he was fighting Kid Buu with it, and it was no less padding and no more useful than Vegeta using SS 2. I dunno if that was in the manga or not, as that at least would explain it feeling filler-y, albeit in an arc that had some of the show's best filler (the only arc for which I remember the manga in its entirely (or at least mostly) is the Cell/Android arc), but at that point I couldn't help but wonder what the point was.

edited 16th Oct '14 8:52:38 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8078: Oct 16th 2014 at 8:53:23 PM

The point was to suck. Like Gotenks, Goku underestimated the ridiculous power bleeding of Super Saiyan 3, and discovered the hard way that this transformation sucks balls and is not good for anything.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8079: Oct 17th 2014 at 12:35:15 AM

I don't think that was the point (Toriyama doesn't write any of the scenes its in that way), but it does come off as such due to the consequences of its use and bare minimum of benefit.

edited 17th Oct '14 12:37:23 AM by KnownUnknown

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#8080: Oct 17th 2014 at 5:39:38 AM

I think the problems with the heroes in the Buu arc were fusion and there just being "another state of Super Saiyan". At the very least, everything up through Vegeta's sacrifice worked fine. Everyone dying also worked, because it was something new. Gohan's "death" worked, because I just mentioned that everyone dying was something interesting, and the reactions to his "death" were too. Still, I'd have had him somehow be out of action for a little so that the Human Extinction Attack happened, have someone fight him (maybe then Vegeta's sacrifice happened), and then Gohan beats Buu with the Spirit Bomb. He would unite people both by being one of the Z fighters, being the "gold fighter" hero in the previous arc, and by Hercule's recommendation, making some character development for the two of them and Videl.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8081: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:23:47 AM

@Tobias I completely disagree that "Ultimate" is just another Super Saiyan like transformation. It is the exact opposite of Super Saiyan 3, and it's all Gohan's power anyway - but now it can be done without stacking transformation on top of transformation and draining more and more energy, the downfall of Super Saiyan 3. Gohan is the form.

And the idea that power ups in general aren't the way is utterly nonsensical, as power ups were how Boo himself stayed ahead, and the only reason power ups didn't save the day was Plot Induced Stupidity over any actual flaw in powering up. That's not a good moral to take - ultimately, nothing was proven wrong with powering up, and so the so called theme was that Toriyama suddenly favoured something much shittier and forced it to work with loose justification.

They didn't fight smarter, they fought much much stupider and were rewarded for it.

Super Saiyan being wrong makes for a sensible theme. Power ups being wrong, even ones with absolutely no drawback, simply fails to make any sense as a theme.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8082: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:40:03 AM

I agree that Ultimate Gohan was nothing like Super Saiyan 3, but it was still just another transformation in an arc that thoroughly gutted the notion of relying on transformations to win. It explicitly replaces his Super Saiyan transformation; he enters it exactly as he would become a Super Saiyan, and it's ostensibly a "better" transformation than becoming a Super Saiyan, but it's still conceptually identical to any other transformation in the series. Ultimate Gohan prevailing against Majin Buu wouldn't have been any different than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan prevailing against Cell, and because of the nature of the enemy they were fighting, all Ultimate Gohan accomplished was making Super Buu even more unstoppable than before.

As you said,

power ups were how Boo himself stayed ahead

This is absolutely correct, but they weren't his power-ups. Buu's absorption ability beats any power-up the heroes could ever pull. They couldn't surpass Buu because he can absorb them and then THEIR power-up makes HIM stronger. Power-ups were exactly how Buu stayed ahead - Gotenks's Fusion Dance power-up and Super Saiyan 3 power-up, and Gohan's Ultimate power-up, all contributed to Buu remaining insurmountable.

Buu was an enemy that couldn't be fought by just becoming stronger than him, because if you became stronger than him, he absorbed you and was then on top of the food chain again. He was an enemy against whom the tactic of "Be stronger, win" could never prevail.

Vegeta laid it out when he gave Goku his plan: let the people of Earth fight. Nobody who fought Pure Buu was stronger than him, with the possible exception of Super Saiyan 3 Goku who, as noted previously, burns through his energy so fast as to just become another example of how trying to out-muscle Buu is an exercise in futility. The Spirit Bomb - combining the strengths of billions of weaker entities to create an attack more powerful than any of them could ever compare to - was the perfect resolution for an enemy that just gets stronger any time you do.

Majin Buu was an adversary who could only be fought by weaker opponents, and so he suffered the Death of a Thousand Cuts. This is an enemy who was defeated not once, but twice by Mr. Satan while the Super Saiyans at their strongest repeatedly made the situation worse! If that's not refuting the idea that only the strongest warriors can ever win, I don't know what is.

edited 17th Oct '14 7:44:15 AM by TobiasDrake

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8083: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:44:28 AM

No, it was laid out that if you're stronger than Boo and he doesn't have someone else to absorb, he's fucked. Like when Vegetto had to allow him to absorb him. Yes, you can beat Boo by overpowering him, especially when he's lost the element of surprise in his ability.

Vegeta's plan was a ridiculous gamble because of a huge number of factors (unknown if the attack would even be powerful enough, need to stall for time and hope Boo doesn't notice, and deliberately avoids killing Vegeta, need all the energy from everyone, need to actually hit Boo with it, etc... the contrivances for it to work are nearly endless), and that they could have easily brought Gohan in to instantly kill Pure Boo, no conflict.

Plot mandated that non-power up strategies worked when power up strategies were far simpler and more logical. Hell, Goku and Vegeta had to turn down free potara just to avoid winning right then.

edited 17th Oct '14 7:45:30 AM by Saiga

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8084: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:49:48 AM

I don't see why bringing Gohan in to instantly kill Pure Buu should be expected to be any more effective than bringing Gohan in to instantly kill Super Buu. So long as they can survive long enough to create it, the worst case scenario of Vegeta's plan is that the Spirit Bomb fails to kill Buu. The worst case scenario of bringing in Gohan is that Pure Buu absorbs Gohan and now Goku and Vegeta have to deal with a far stronger form of Buu.

When he's backed is in a corner, he absorbs his opponent. That's how he became Fat Buu in the first place. Trying to fight him with tactics that were proven ineffectual long before the characters even met Buu, and then re-established as ineffectual repeatedly throughout the characters' conflict with him, would have been the very definition of insanity. Powering up does not work against Buu. That Vegeta finally realized that is the only reason Buu was overcome.

edited 17th Oct '14 7:50:36 AM by TobiasDrake

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stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#8085: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:52:51 AM

Powering up does work against Buu. That's what Vegetto was.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8086: Oct 17th 2014 at 7:55:26 AM

Because Pure Boo is much weaker than Super Boo and there's no one Pure Boo can absorb to surpass Gohan. Plus, absorption is now known about. At that point in the story Gohan vs Super Boo would net them a win.

As seen with Vegetto vs Boo - one on one, absorption isn't going to work when he's outclassed. And no, it was never said he became backed into a corner to become Fat Boo, we don't know any of the details of those fights.

Vegetto proved the tactics were extremely effective. Spirit Bomb? Has literally never beat anyone.

Boo was overcome due to an insane amount of luck and because that form of Boo was super dumb. That would've never worked on Super Boo.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8087: Oct 17th 2014 at 8:10:14 AM

We know enough about those fights. We know that Buu was outclassed, couldn't win on his own merits, and absorbed his opponents in order to prevail.

It was never suggested that Super Buu had to surpass someone to absorb them; the Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin that Buu absorbed were both explicitly stated to have been stronger, which is why he had to absorb them. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was already running rings around him before Ultimate Gohan showed up. Gotenks was pretty decisively flawed in that the Super Saiyan 3 form cut his Fusion time down substantially, but before it ran out, he was clearly superior to Super Buu, and he was absorbed. Even Ultimate Gohan was far superior to Buucolo when he was absorbed. There is not a single instance of Buu using his absorption technique on someone weaker than him. It's how he wins when he finds himself drawing the short straw, power-wise.

Imagine if Goku and Vegeta had gone with the Potara and Pure Buu, realizing how outclassed he is, absorbed them. Then what? The Potara fusion has already been demonstrated to break down inside Buu's body, so now Goku and Vegeta have to fight from within like they did against Super Buu, but without the self-destruct option in the form of a Mr. Buu they can tear out. Who's going to stop Buuku, now embodied with the combined power of Goku and Vegeta? That's an even worse scenario than Goku and Vegeta having to fight whatever form Pure Buu + Gohan creates.

They know absorption is a technique, but nobody's ever determined a way to prevent it from happening. At best, Vegetto conceived a plan to retain his individuality after being absorbed, but Buu is now aware that they can do that, and they still don't have a solution for how to not be absorbed in the first place. Not only was absorption never beaten, but the heroes eventually started molding their strategies around its immutability.

edited 17th Oct '14 8:12:44 AM by TobiasDrake

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8088: Oct 17th 2014 at 8:18:02 AM

We know that Buu was outclassed, couldn't win on his own merits, and absorbed his opponents in order to prevail.

No we don't. This is literally said nowhere. Not even filler adds this, as Boo was clearly winning against South Kaioshin, and seemed to be at a stalemate against Dai Kaioshin.

It was never suggested that Super Buu had to surpass someone to absorb them; the Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin that Buu absorbed were both explicitly stated to have been stronger, which is why he had to absorb them.

Neither Kaioshin was ever said to be stronger. And it's not explicitly stated he can't absorb stronger opponents, it's just shown in the Vegetto battle that one on one, it's too obvious to work. He only tries it when Vegetto deliberately lets his guard down and lets Boo know about it.

Imagine if Goku and Vegeta had gone with the Potara and Pure Buu, realizing how outclassed he is, absorbed them.

This would not happen. Vegetto would simply win, knowing about the absorption and being able to easily absorb it, or use his shield and simply not drop it this time.

In response to your edit: yes, they have a way to beat fusion - not deliberately allowing it to happen. Vegetto had to give Boo a massive opening, knew it was coming, and had plenty of time to react. If he can put the shield up, he can:

1) Dodge it

2) Blast it away with Vegeta's shockwave

3) Instant Transmission away

4) Immediately end Boo

5) Use a shield and not drop it

6) Win at everything forever

Gohan-Boo couldn't beat him. The several times weaker Pure Boo has nothing.

edited 17th Oct '14 8:20:40 AM by Saiga

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8089: Oct 17th 2014 at 8:44:08 AM

I thought Ultimate Gohan was just lazy artwork. Could just be that I'm used to seeing a person change their form the more stronger they become from just about every form of fiction in the planet.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8090: Oct 17th 2014 at 8:46:14 AM

He was different to base Gohan though, in both hairstyle and eyes.

Super Saiyan 1 actually was lazy artwork, that's why it had blonde hair - so Toriyama's assistant wouldn't have to ink Goku's hair while he was transformed.

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8091: Oct 17th 2014 at 8:58:22 AM

Looking it up, I forgot that Gohan had hair longer than him when he first when Super Saiyan.

Ah, I see it. Kind of Vegetaish hair and Super Saiyan eyes. I still find it lazy.

edited 17th Oct '14 8:58:47 AM by GethKnight

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8092: Oct 17th 2014 at 9:02:02 AM

I don't see how it's lazier than any of his other forms. If it was Super Saiyan 1 or 2 they'd just draw him and not ink in the hair/eyes.

edited 17th Oct '14 9:02:10 AM by Saiga

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#8093: Oct 17th 2014 at 9:05:04 AM

Compared to the Super Saiyan forms getting more and more altered. Ultimate just feels like a letdown. It's like Cooler showing up and just getting a bit taller for his stronger form compared to Freeza's powering up.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8094: Oct 17th 2014 at 9:07:51 AM

But it is meant to be similar to his base form given that's the whole thing with the form.

Also, Super Saiyan 2 has very tiny alterations and in teen Gohan/Vegeta/Gotenks no easily discernible differences at all beyond sparks in the aura.

Kid Gohan was pretty drastically different as a Super Saiyan 2, Goku not so much.

edited 17th Oct '14 9:08:30 AM by Saiga

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8095: Oct 17th 2014 at 9:08:02 AM

I kind of wish Gohan had kept the long hair for a while longer. He pulls it off better than anyone else in the series who has it.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#8096: Oct 18th 2014 at 8:33:02 AM

I'll never get what the Dragonball fandom's fixation with making the humans "keep up" is. Sure, let's have the dozens of characters be at the same level and dog pile the villains. Sure, let's have the story move at a snail's pace by devoting time to having the humans keep up... for some reason.

If I was to make a change to Dragonball, all I'd do is introduce the various things that keep getting added to Dragonball's universe after the manga's end.

edited 18th Oct '14 8:33:17 AM by Cruherrx

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#8097: Oct 18th 2014 at 8:36:52 AM

[up]They want the humans to "keep up" because the humans are interesting characters made completely irrelevant for very little reason.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#8098: Oct 18th 2014 at 9:44:05 AM

[up][up]It's possible to do it without that worst case scenario.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#8099: Oct 18th 2014 at 10:14:45 AM

DBZ is kind of the poster series for a story that let much of its cast fall by the wayside in favor of an increasingly select few, and not handling that transition particularly well. So that's probably also a reason for it - things like that, while not the worst, are some of the more noticeable errors a series can make.

You don't see too many series juggle a large supporting case, but I don't often see series like that run at a snails pace simply for having a lot of characters (in fact, DBZ has at times progressed very slowly while juggling very few). Likewise, I've seen too many series where a lot of characters fighting together against a common foe that still kept a good sense of conflict. Neither of those assumptions seem particularly founded.

edited 18th Oct '14 10:18:28 AM by KnownUnknown

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8100: Oct 18th 2014 at 4:25:58 PM

They really weren't that interesting... the ones that went irrelevant, anyway. Ten, Yamcha and Chaozu were the only ones who really became obsolete and they really didn't do a whole lot for the story. Yamcha was entertaining in the first arc but after that his quirks were immediately forgotten about and he was just a cocky punching back - but it was enough to turn him into a joke so it's all good.

Ten is Piccolo with less personality and Chaozu is his groupie. Also Chaozu's powers really fall under Antagonist Powers which is why he only got one real fight.

Kuririn was only irrelevant in the fighting section of the Boo arc (maybe in the Daimao arc as well but he was dead then) but the Boo arc was different for bringing out the big bad so early.

Yamcha, Ten and Chaozu just didn't have a lot to offer to the story. The story isn't there as a vessel to serve the supporting characters and it's not a failing when it doesn't. Characters serve a story and they had nothing unique to bring. All they could really contribute at that point was fighting and the story had enough characters who could do that.

Having said that if I were to make changes to the series it'd be favourable to the humans simplybecause one thing I'd absolutely change is Freeza's ridiculous power bloat. tongue So they wouldn't be thousands of times weaker than everyone else.

[up] Eh... it's not like the focus shrunk. If was mostly the same save for the Daimao and Boo arcs who brought out the arc villains so early. Yamcha, Ten and Chaozu stopped being relevant really early, and then we got Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Satan and the kids.

I also disagree that it's an error. Toriyama's said that limiting his cast size was always a deliberate choice and he did it most often in the earlier parts of Dragon Ball by having Goku go off on his own for lengthy periods. It's just a difference of writing style.

As for pacing, the manga is faster paced than any manga I've read with a larger active cast, and with its flow doesn't really have room for more events to be injected just to give the humans something.

edited 18th Oct '14 4:39:21 PM by Saiga


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