I'm not a Naruto fan, so would you mind telling me how you think it would be better? I'm not doubting you (far from it), but I'd like to know how you think it'd be improved.
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Whoof, that's going a long way back. Much like Dragonball, I never outright hated Naruto, just felt incredibly annoyed at the wasted potential. I'm honestly not sure why I felt like that, mostly because I forgot most of the actual plot of Naruto and thus can't recreate it.
It might have been because seeing a girl strive to rise above her peers in reaction to years of being ignored and feared would have been more meaningful. Or maybe I thought the subtle changes in the relationships between the characters would have been for the better.
Huzzah for Google Site Search
. That's from four years ago when I first had this thought, with some discussion and minor expansion on the idea a bit lower on the page.
I bought Super Saiyan as a culmination of the hero's legend, and Super Saiyan 2 as the "son surpasses the father and inherits his legend" accomplishment. After that, superfluous. Especially Super Saiyan 3, which is even worse than 4 simply for the fact that it has no real plot significance and seems only to be there to have another transformation and to handwave Goku leaving early.
In addition to the things already mentioned, if I were rebooting DB/DBZ I'd try to ensure that technique and interesting abilities/characteristics didn't fall by the wayside in favor of raw power for so long. One of the things I liked about Majin Buu is that he seemed intentionally designed to avert that (he was more powerful than everybody, but the main interesting thing about fight with him was the strange and unique abilities he exhibited), even though defeating him came down "biggest energy blast ever" anyway.
edited 16th Oct '14 3:44:57 PM by KnownUnknown
Keeping special abilities relevant would go a long way to keepin more characters relevant. Yeah, Goku specializes in raw power (and let's say Vegeta does too), but Krillin's the only one that can cut anything. Maybe after Chiaotzu stops fighting, he teaches Tien some stuff? Piccolo has magic and that beam that drills things. Maybe Goku specializes in speed, because that's what his training in King Kai's place and IT leaned towards? Then we have Gohan, who spent extensive time training alone with several of the cast, who could become the good analogue to Cell in being a blending of all their things.
Still presents the problem of Buu, though, but I guess the Spirit Bomb still works to resolve that: just straight up goodness over evil.
I'd personally shake up the Cell Saga a bit, with the biggest change being that Cell won't change forms. The first form had a great design, and his somewhat lacklustre power allowed for greater emphasis on his predatory instincts and cunning.
Of course, he would eventually gain enough power to fight on even footing with the best of them so we can have our epic final boss battle. I just want to extend the "hunting the terrifying monster before he absorbs even more cities" phase of the story a bit.
This would also remove the need for the Time Chamber Training, which was just another entry in the long line of convenient power-ups. I really dislike all the convenient power-ups people gain through the series, only to be rendered completely irrelevant by the end of arc, or even during the arc, or never being relevant in the first place.
edited 16th Oct '14 3:59:40 PM by Kayeka
That's a perfectly good argument and I can see that work. I'd just be sort of worried that it would necessitate yet another power-up for the good guys to compensate. Of course, it's hard to tell which version would be better without actually seeing the end result, but it would probably be close in my hypothetical opinion.
No, the most insanely BS idea was SSG. Because this means that for millenia, the Saiyans new that the way to gain ultimate power approximately 10,000 more powerful than their actual legendary ultiamte power was to join hands and not think about killing something for 5 minutes, and not one of them tried it.
Wouldn't there have to be a SSJ for God Mode to be unlocked? I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know.
Shame they didn't go with a Loophole Abuse and have Gohan say that they won't fight killer robots. Then think to himself "She said nothing about investigating giant insect eggs."
Death isn't as cheap in Dragon Ball as people give it credit. By the time they start to really be abused, they cease to be easily abusable. On Namek, they can't abuse the Dragon Balls because Piccolo is dead, and have to compete with Frieza for a set. During the Android Saga, Piccolo absorbs God, ending the existence of the Dragon Balls. In the Majin Buu Saga, Bulma conveniently removes the Dragon Balls from commission, and then Buu blows up the planet. They're mainly used during climaxes and epilogues, which means the ability of characters to come back from the grave is wholly dependent on the good guys winning this fight. Additionally, they introduce plot points that wouldn't be possible without them.
Think about it: the entire reason Krillin, Gohan, and Bulma had to go to Namek in the first place is because the death of Piccolo meant death ceased to be cheap. The entire Frieza Saga is a consequence of losing access to resurrection, and the heroes being forced to find a way to prevent all the deaths that happened in the Saiyan Saga from being permanent. Yes, they got to come back, but only at the end of the biggest shitstorm the few remaining survivors had ever been part of.
By the Majin Buu saga, there are even unique strategies being formed around the cheap nature of death in the setting. Piccolo can earnestly suggest to Super Buu that he go exterminate the entire population of the planet Earth as a bid to buy time because he knows the Dragon Balls can bring them back. Throwing the entire human race under the bus to delay an unwinnable fight is a tactic that would not be possible in settings where all deaths are final.
Death isn't AS cheap as fans like to suggest, but it's also just cheap enough that pretty much 100% of the story would have to be thrown out if you were going to try to rewrite it without the resurrection component. Dragon Ball cannot exist without the revivals.
This. Toriyama wrote Frieza so far beyond any of the characters, power-wise, that he had to take GREAT leaps with zenkais and Namekian Fusion in order to allow Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo to catch up. The characters were given far too much distance to cross in far too short a span of time, and utterly nonsensical power-ups were required to get them there. As it is, Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation was nothing compared to the boosts he received on his way to it.
Super Saiyan multiplied his power 50x. Spamming zenkai with his fight with Vegeta, gravity training, and subsequent beatdown from the Captain Ginyu fiasco all raised his power from approximately 8,000 to 3,000,000, increasing his power 375x. His final zenkai alone, from Ginyu to Frieza, was a permament 33x boost, raising him from 90,000 to 3,000,000. The Goku that fought Vegeta on Earth could have transformed into a Super Saiyan 3 and then, would only barely be stronger than the base form of the Goku who fought Frieza - and would find himself utterly curbstomped by a very amused Frieza, idly wondering why he was ever intimidated by the thought of a Super Saiyan.
The zenkais and Namekian Fusion on Namek are what skyrocketed the characters' powers so far out of control. Meanwhile, the fact that Frieza was so ridiculously powerful compared to everyone else - his FIRST FORM having a power level of 530,000 compared to the second-strongest warrior in the universe's 120,000 - necessitated the ridiculous gains in the first place. Frieza is more to blame than anything the other aliens ever did for the insane power escalation.
If anything, the point of Super Saiyan 3 is the fact that Super Saiyan 3 sucks balls. That nobody ever accomplishes anything with it feels, if anything, to be a deconstruction of the "Power up to a stronger form and win everything forever" tactics that became so popular in the Android Saga. Even in the canon proper, Super Saiyan 3 is awful. It's incredibly strong, but it bleeds power too quickly to be useful. The only person to ever use it to any degree of success against Majin Buu is Gotenks, and that's just until the form eats through his Fusion Time like Goku at a buffet line.
I've said a few times in the other thread, but Majin Buu often felt like an enemy that could not be fought with the tactics of the Android Saga. By the time the Android Saga came about, everyone got complacent. No longer was training about getting stronger and learning new techniques; it was all about making Super Saiyan better. Everyone's focus was on finding a NEW Miracle Form that would do to Cell what Goku's first transformation did to Frieza. Piccolo merged with God, Trunks and Vegeta each invented their own shitty Miracle Forms, and Goku put the pressure on Gohan to invent a Miracle Form to save the day.
In the end, it worked out - by luck and a great deal of effort on even Cell's part to help Gohan invent the form that would defeat Cell - but that stopped working when Buu rolled around. They tried Fusions, Super Saiyan 3, and Gohan got a nifty Unique Transformation, and all of it was f*cking worthless. Buu laughed every goddamn attempt at a Miracle Transformation off and just kept on kicking, and finally it came down to creative use of the Dragon Balls - those handy artifacts that have been around the entire series - the Genki-Dama - which up until then had never successfully defeated an enemy in the entire history of its usage - some clever strategizing, and every available hand pitching in to defeat the enemy like they used to do before everything became about Super Saiyans.
The Android Saga created the idea that all tactics short of Super Saiyan transformations are ineffective. Majin Buu shot that idea in the back of the head and buried it in a shallow grave.
edited 16th Oct '14 8:19:04 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.What.
The.
F'ck.
I'd say Gohan winning after abandoning Super Saiyan entirely would've shown that best, especially with Old Kaioshin calling Super Saiyan the wrong way of doing things.
I like Zenkai because it was a clever way to get around the lack of room for training in that arc, but the increases were too huge and it presents a problem in other arcs where unless you lay stricter rules it's too easy to abuse. If Goku's arrival on Namek was delayed and the arc escalation wasn't so bad Zenkai wouldn't even be needed.
I agree with Tobias on the Dragon Balls for the most part, except that maybe Porunga should have had the same revival restriction. It wouldn't change a whole lot except Kuririn would have to survive Namek (Gohan could die in his place) and Chaozu would stay dead which is great because he hardly appeared post-revival anyway.
Oh and Dragon Ball has won awards... not that awards mean a fucking thing.
edited 16th Oct '14 8:27:13 PM by Saiga
I don't. Old Kaioshin called out Super Saiyan as the wrong way of doing things but missed the thematic reason for why it sucks: namely, that in the end, it's just a huge power boost given to the character to shift their position on the Hero/Villain power scale. Old Kaioshin's proposed solution was a different huge power boost given to the character for free, explicitly replacing Super Saiyan with Ultimate Gohan. "Your overreliance on your ridiculous transformation sucks. Here, have a different ridiculous transformation," isn't much of a solution.
The conclusion we got - Vegeta and Mr. Buu stalling Pure Buu in order to enact a complicated plan via Kaio's telepathy and the Namekian Dragon Balls to restore the Earth and a Genki-Dama fueled by the combined power of the entire planet - energy harvested by the incredible attention-whoring skills of Mr. Satan, no less - felt like a brilliant way for the show to turn its back on the idea that a random power-boost at the Eleventh Hour is the way to win things; Majin Buu was defeated by teamwork, a collaboration of all remaining protagonists using the skills they've built up over the course of their lives, and creative use of the tools the protagonists had left at their disposal.
In the end, nobody ever surpassed Majin Buu. Every time someone got stronger than him, he just got stronger to top them. And ultimately, they didn't have to surpass him. Much like the fight with Vegeta long ago, they were able to pull out a win against an impossibly-powerful enemy by fighting smarter and utilizing everything they had to its fullest.
Which would work perfectly and, if anything, give Goku even more of an emotional push for his Super Saiyan transformation. Krillin is his best non-Bulma friend and has been nearly all his life at this point, but Gohan is his son and despite all jokes to the contrary, Goku cares very deeply about his son.
edited 16th Oct '14 8:44:18 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Well, you don't have to make it like that. Really, my first recommendation for improvement with shonen is usually "needs more female characters, at least a few of whom are on the level of the male protagonists".
edited 16th Oct '14 2:56:26 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!