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940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7676: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:06:19 PM

Pilaf Empire Pilaf and Shuu don't fit. Mai: The pretty one.

Tournament Arc Bacterian: The big tough stupid one. Ranfan: The pretty one. Giran: The freaky one with weird powers.

Red Ribbon Army None for General White and Staff Officer Black. General Blue: The pretty one.

Crane School None for Tien and Tao Pai Pai. Chioutzou: The freaky one with weird powers.

Piccolo Jr. He didn't have a crew, but if I were just going by the non-Z-Fighters. Chi-Chi: The pretty one. Hero and Tao Pai Pai: The freaky ones with weird powers.

The only one I think works is the Tournament Arc.

[up][up]I'm not sure about Cast from Hit Points having been influenced by the Kikoho, but I'm almost sure that Togashi got the idea for his finger gun from Dragon Ball. YYH was pretty great up until the Three Kings Arc.

It might be a bit tangential, but did Togashi make Hunter x Hunter as a Deconstruction of fighting Shonen and Dragon Ball specifically?

edited 4th Sep '14 3:13:29 PM by 940131

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7677: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:12:48 PM

Edit: And on that note, when did Krillin surpass Tien? Tien has always been stronger than Yamcha, and at the beginning of Z proper, the scouter shows Tien is still marginally ahead of Krillin too. When did that change and stick?

When Krillin had his full potential unlocked by Guru, gradually raising his power level to 75,000 by the last recorded power level we ever got on him, during the fight with Frieza. The last time we ever got an exact number on Krillin's power level, he was nearly as strong as where Goku was when he arrived on Namek after training in 100x gravity - 90,000 - and proceeded to effortlessly hand the entire Ginyu Force sans CaptainLISTEN!  their asses on a plate.

Right now, Krillin should be powerful enough that he could beat Yamcha, Chiaotzu, and Tien simultaneously with one hand, because he's the only one of the humans that got to benefit from the massive power boosts handed out on Namek.

edited 4th Sep '14 3:14:31 PM by TobiasDrake

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940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7678: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:15:21 PM

[up]That's quite a stretch. I don't see Krillin wiping the floor with all of them at the same time. Where did it say that his PL was equal to arrival Goku's anyways?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7679: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:19:21 PM

V-Jump revealed Krillin's Battle Power at the Frieza fight as 75,000, which is assumed to be the endpoint of the power gains he received from Guru unlocking his full potential.

When Goku arrived on Namek and defeated the Ginyu Force, his power level was revealed as 90,000 at his max through the Scouter. When Captain Ginyu scoffed due to his own power level of 120,000, Goku used the Kaioken's x2 multiplier to raise himself to 180,000.

Thus, Krillin with his potential fully unlocked - the Krillin that cut off Frieza's tail - is close to where Goku was when he arrived on Namek. Tien, meanwhile, spent that entire arc on Kaio's planet being trained by someone weaker than Nappa and learning absolutely nothing from it. He had a few years to train himself between then and the Android arc, but he has a LONG way to go before he'll even be close to capable of making Krillin so much as break a sweat.

Especially since Krillin was also training at the same time, and as Gohan's progress demonstrates, even after having their Potential unlocked, they can still get stronger. Tien and Yamcha would be hard-pressed to ever catch up to Krillin.

edited 4th Sep '14 3:21:22 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7680: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:37:41 PM

V-Jump revealed Krillin's Battle Power at the Frieza fight as 75, 000, which is assumed to be the endpoint of the power gains he received from Guru unlocking his full potential. When Goku arrived on Namek and defeated the Ginyu Force, his power level was revealed as 90, 000 at his max through the Scouter. When Captain Ginyu scoffed due to his own power level of 120, 000, Goku used the Kaioken's x2 multiplier to raise himself to 180, 000. Thus, Krillin with his potential fully unlocked - the Krillin that cut off Frieza's tail - is close to where Goku was when he arrived on Namek. Tien, meanwhile, spent that entire arc on Kaio's planet being trained by someone weaker than Nappa and learning absolutely nothing from it. He had a few years to train himself between then and the Android arc, but he has a LONG way to go before he'll even be close to capable of making Krillin so much as break a sweat. Especially since Krillin was also training at the same time, and as Gohan's progress demonstrates, even after having their Potential unlocked, they can still get stronger. Tien and Yamcha would be hard-pressed to ever catch up to Krillin.

Not necessarily. Tien was on Kai's planet training with King Kai, Chioutzou, Yamcha and Piccolo. Goku has much more potential than any non-Saiyan and yet when he trained with Mr. Popo for 3 years, he hadn't even reached a PL of 300. Tien, Yamcha and Krillin train with Mr. Popo for 1 year and they're all sporting PL's between 1,000 and 2,000. It's not impossible that Tien kept up while on Namek. The strength of characters grew according to the needs of the plot.

Krillin stopped training during the Cell Saga and between the Cell Sag and the end of Dragon Ball is 17 years. When Trunks tells them about the Androids, Piccolo says that anyone who's not strong enough should stay back while looking directly at Yamcha and Krillin. When Yamcha gets stabbed, Goku sends Krillin away to heal while Piccolo, Tien and Goku go to fight the Androids. Tiens pretty lackluster compared to the Saiyans, Piccolo and the Androids, but I've always felt that he was stronger than Tien. But this is one of the biggest debates in the DBZ community.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7681: Sep 4th 2014 at 3:44:06 PM

It might be a bit tangential, but did Togashi make Hunter x Hunter as a Deconstruction of fighting Shonen and Dragon Ball specifically?

I wouldn't say that. There are some moments that read interestingly in a meta context- like, there's a bit where the hero is having a climatic fight against a villain who's stronger, smarter and more experienced than he is, and then the villain wins that fight because there's no good reason why he'd lose. And then the arc ends with the hero basically just going 'well, that sucked. I'll try to do better in the future.'

But it doesn't so much read as commentary on the genre so much as it does demonstrate that Togashi's been written in the genre long enough to understand why the conventions of the genre are there, and, accordingly, what the strengths and weaknesses of them are. He's not afraid to alter the established structures if they don't serve the story, in other words.

edited 4th Sep '14 3:44:45 PM by Gilphon

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7683: Sep 4th 2014 at 4:53:22 PM

Not necessarily. Tien was on Kai's planet training with King Kai, Chioutzou, Yamcha and Piccolo. Goku has much more potential than any non-Saiyan and yet when he trained with Mr. Popo for 3 years, he hadn't even reached a PL of 300. Tien, Yamcha and Krillin train with Mr. Popo for 1 year and they're all sporting PL's between 1, 000 and 2, 000. It's not impossible that Tien kept up while on Namek. The strength of characters grew according to the needs of the plot.

Krillin stopped training during the Cell Saga and between the Cell Sag and the end of Dragon Ball is 17 years. When Trunks tells them about the Androids, Piccolo says that anyone who's not strong enough should stay back while looking directly at Yamcha and Krillin. When Yamcha gets stabbed, Goku sends Krillin away to heal while Piccolo, Tien and Goku go to fight the Androids. Tiens pretty lackluster compared to the Saiyans, Piccolo and the Androids, but I've always felt that he was stronger than Tien. But this is one of the biggest debates in the DBZ community.

As you said, the strength of the characters grows according to the needs of the plot; however, the plot stopped having any need of Tien a long time ago.

Tien has long been defined by his overconfidence in his own ability. The last time he was actually a relevant combatant was the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, the same arc in which he was introduced. Fans really like him because of his stoic personality, but the fact is, Tien's record hasn't been that much better than Yamcha ever since, no matter how much much he likes to talk himself up. Tien's insistence on acting like his fighting skills still mean anything at all in a world full of Super Saiyans, god-killing abominations, and Piccolo is, if anything, just...sad.

In short, there is no reason to assume Tien's power level suddenly skyrocketed offscreen in order to surpass Krillin, because the canon never suggests anything of the sort. Like Yamcha and Krillin, the lead protagonists and the villains that came into existence to challenge all ascended to levels so far out of his league after Namek that his power level relative to the rest of the cast ceased to even be worth establishing, but unlike Krillin and Yamcha, Tien never had the good sense to bow out and move on with his life, instead desperately clinging to the idea that if he trains hard enough, maybe some day he'll be strong enough to get a little bit of dust on Vegeta's right ankle.

edited 4th Sep '14 4:54:03 PM by TobiasDrake

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7684: Sep 4th 2014 at 6:17:38 PM

I like to imagine that Krillin eventually got about as strong as first form Frieza. Or at least Ginyu.

And maybe he got a little weaker when he retired, but then 18 trained with him for a bit so.

I don't have evidence for those things obviously.

I mean, granted, that's still really pathetic overall.

KBSL Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#7685: Sep 4th 2014 at 6:21:58 PM

As far as humans go that's not pathetic, it's quite extraordinary in fact.

People constantly forget that by human standards, Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaotzu are all freaks of nature, because they keep comparing them to people who members of races who are already far superior to humans in combat abilities, and are also freaks as far as their species is concerned.

Edit: Keep in mind, that the average power level for a human is apparently 5 and Mr.Satan/Hercule became the world's champion with a power level around 80 or 90. (I believe this came from a data book or something, but I don't know for sure, maybe Saiga or Tobias could confirm or deny)

edited 4th Sep '14 6:27:21 PM by KBSL

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#7686: Sep 4th 2014 at 6:28:59 PM

Yeah, by human standards, Krillin is a God.

My various fanfics.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#7687: Sep 4th 2014 at 6:31:16 PM

x15000 more powerful than the average human is pretty powerful.

It's just utterly pointless in this kind of arms race. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#7688: Sep 4th 2014 at 8:17:47 PM

Tien spent 17 years training in the mountains with someone much weaker than even Yamcha. Any benefit he gained is likely to be incredibly scarce.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7689: Sep 4th 2014 at 10:13:50 PM

[up]Piccolo spent most of his time training alone. It can be done.

When did Tien ever act like he was on the same level of the Saiyans and Piccolo? He even said that he recognized that he would never be able to beat Goku again. He trains because martial arts are his life and just not being the best isn't a reason to quit. Krillin settled down, got married and had a kid. According to Toriyama, Tien had the chance to do the same, but he spent his time training. Piccolo was strong, but he'd never be able to keep up with the Saiyans again after the Imperfect Cell Saga. Instead he was reduced to Saiyan babysitter, but he never quit. I've never really seen him act over confidently except when he attacked Android 17 and 18, but he wasn't the only one being overconfident there.

There's no reason to believe that he didn't? The guy lives to train. Krillin only trained so he could pick up girls. You're saying that Tien stopped being relevant by the 22nd Budokai, but even after that and up until the Saiyan Saga he was considered stronger than Krillin. In the 23rd Budokai he was built up along with Picolo, Goku and Hero as one of the 4 strongest people on Earth. It isn't to knock Krillin. He's one of my favorite characters. I just never saw any reason to believe that Krillin was stronger than Tien.

I don't know. Maybe it's just the way he carries himself, but I don't think there's any reason to believe that Krillin is so much above Tien. Tien's consistently been above Krillin until the Namek Saga where it gets fuzzy, but just because he was out of the direct action doesn't mean we should assume his PL didn't increase significantly (By the standards of Non-Saiyans and Namekians).

edited 16th May '15 10:18:21 AM by 940131

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#7690: Sep 5th 2014 at 4:02:11 AM

I think part of it is that Saiyans have some weird biology stuff that humans don't. Like, independent of power levels.

Goku got shot by a revolver point blank. In the first episode. But there are a few times when Roshi expresses concern about facing the Red Ribbon army and their guns.

I mean, yeah, there's Launch and her machine gun being used for comedy, but her aim kinda sucks. And it seemed like they thought Goku actually died when Commander Black shot him from behind.

So I think Saiyans might just have really tough skin. And bones. Even without their power levels being high. I mean, starting off, Goku was supposedly a 10, while Roshi was more like 180 I think. Roshi's power level was higher, so he had more ki and therefore strength, but the body that ki was supporting and enhancing didn't have some of the major advantages that Goku's had.

...And I don't think that farmer was in the best shape of his life either.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7691: Sep 5th 2014 at 4:35:06 AM

[up][up]Piccolo's gains from mountain training stopped after the Saiyan arc (his power level then was only 3500). From then on his powerups came from fusions, which made him exponentially more powerful.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7692: Sep 5th 2014 at 4:57:58 AM

[up]We don't know how much his PL increased outside of fusions, but it's unreasonable to assume that he got nothing from training.

edited 5th Sep '14 5:05:23 AM by 940131

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7693: Sep 5th 2014 at 6:01:59 AM

It's unreasonable to assume that. Most everyone spends time training in the mountains and nobody makes any gains from it. It's why "mountain training" is a joke in the fandom: because of how useless it is. Unless you're training under increased gravity, getting zenkais, doing fusions or getting your potential unlocked, you're not gonna be getting stronger.

Even worse, Piccolo was out training alone instead of having someone he could spar with.

edited 5th Sep '14 6:02:52 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#7694: Sep 5th 2014 at 6:20:23 AM

Didn't Piccolo make temporary copies of himself to spar with?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7695: Sep 5th 2014 at 8:08:18 AM

Only in filler.

The only person who has ever used the multiform technique outside of filler is Tien at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. It never appeared again because it is a completely worthless technique, splitting the user's power between the clones ultimately resulting in one competent fighter turning into multiple worthless fighers. The technique is basically Conservation of Ninjutsu embodied.

Goku defeated the move in its very first appearance, called out its weaknesses, and nobody ever did it again.

As far as Tien consistently being stronger than Krillin: this is true. Right up until the Nappa fight, Tien was stronger. Then he died. Then Krillin's power multiplied 42x through Guru's Unlock ability while Tien did the afterlife equivalent of Mountain Training in 10x gravity, and that was the last we ever saw of the humans' power. Trying to claim that Tien caught up to Krillin is pure fanwank.

Fact is, Namek passed out HUGE power boosts for everybody. Goku's last zenkai took him from 90,000 to 3 f*cking million. Gohan jumped to 200,000 without using his Hidden Power. Piccolo fused with Nail and between his power level of about 3,500 and Nail's power level of 42,000, they somehow came up with over 1,000,000. Namek was a Superpower Lottery for everyone who played, and Tien and Yamcha missed out.

Nobody who came home from Namek got strong through Mountain Training. The Saiyans chugged zenkais like frat boys at a kegger, Piccolo abused Namekian Fusion to a ridiculous gain, Krillin and Gohan had their powers artificially raised by Guru's special powers. "Train to get stronger" stopped being relevant after the Saiyans were defeated. From Namek onward, power levels are all about who can come up with the most bullshit multiplier superpowers to shoot their powers up several times higher in an instant. Even the Time Chamber was more focused on finding a better Super Saiyan transformation than just raising the characters' strength.

edited 5th Sep '14 8:12:20 AM by TobiasDrake

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KBSL Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Forming Voltron
#7696: Sep 5th 2014 at 8:28:26 AM

I thought Piccolo's splitting wasn't the multiform technique but just something Namekians could do. I'm not sure why, now.

edited 5th Sep '14 9:16:09 AM by KBSL

940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7697: Sep 5th 2014 at 8:49:15 AM

[up][up][up][up]Again, there's no proof that they gained nothing from training. None. At. All. They used powerups when they needed to gain strength quickly. If they gain nothing from training, the year they spent in the Ro Sa T was meaningless.

[up][up]I'm pretty sure we won't agree on this, so I'll just say this and you can have the last word if you want.

1) There's no proof that they didn't get anything from Mountain training because we never saw their PL's again. And by that logic the Ro Sa T is worthless.

2) We don't know what they did with King Kai for the years that they were there or how much his power increased or didn't increase.

edited 5th Sep '14 8:59:04 AM by 940131

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7698: Sep 5th 2014 at 9:42:50 AM

They weren't with King Kai for years. At most, they were with him for one year, the same length of time that Goku was with him, and that's depending on how long God's ship was in transit to reach Namek. To match Krillin's post-Namek power, Tien would have to add 73,170 points to his power level from Mountain Training alone at a bare minimum; that's not taking into consideration Krillin's own post-Namek training in the three years of fighting the androids.

When they made huge leaps like that, Goku and Vegeta at least did their training in a Gravity Chamber to intensify the effects; and were able to get more bang for their buck through zenkai. Goku raised his power level from 8,000 to 90,000 in six days by training in 20-100x gravity and getting four zenkais out of it. Tien literally does his training in the mountains, with nothing to challenge him but Chiaotzu. It's patently unbelievable for him to make that kind of jump without any increase in his level of training.

edited 5th Sep '14 9:46:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#7699: Sep 5th 2014 at 10:00:18 AM

By the time they arrived at Namek, they had to have been there for less than a year or else the plan to revive Piccolo with Porunga then revive the others using the Earth Dragonballs wouldn't have made any sense in the first place.

Dunno about how long they were actually there, but with having to wait a few months to get wished back by Porunga it couldn't have been more than a few months over a year.

edited 5th Sep '14 10:01:09 AM by KnownUnknown

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7700: Sep 5th 2014 at 10:27:58 AM

Shouldn't dedicated discussion using factual evidence from the manga to argue power levels that only matter in the manga be used in the main thread about the manga? DBZA is a different ballpark. All of this all spun off of "I don't like this joke because in canon, Tien doesn't act that way / well, actually in canon, this scene demonstrates, etc."

To the person that said that, I think their portrayal of Tien is hilarious. Tien's dedication to being a martial artist makes him appear very hardcore. He's one of, if not the ballsiest human fighters in the series. They've even had him snark at Vegeta who would definitely be stronger than him, which made Vegeta's pitiful position at the time all the more comical. It doesn't really bother me that he bites off more than he can chew - Vegeta and Piccolo have done that multiple times, either through stupidity or being distracted, and it's still funny.

I don't see a lack of a quirk. His quirk is being the, and follow me on this one, Scary Black Man of the group. Like the Kaio-what and Mr. Popo gags, it will likely run its course.

edited 5th Sep '14 10:41:21 AM by FOFD


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