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TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#7576: Sep 1st 2014 at 5:54:17 PM

I still say Vegito is stronger than anything introduced in Battle of the Gods.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#7577: Sep 1st 2014 at 6:52:51 PM

The extended cut of Battle of the gods says even Potara fusion wouldn't do much against Beerus.

edited 1st Sep '14 6:53:07 PM by Demongodofchaos2

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#7578: Sep 1st 2014 at 6:56:58 PM

Well, Piccolo may not be able to quite catch up, but he still remains a comfortable 4th strongest being position.

Remember, he went from 2nd form Freeza tier to almost comparable to a Super Saiyan in 3 years. He then became as strong as 17, and then he spent a day in the hyperbolic time thingie with noticeable results according to Goku.

This is a guy probably comparable to suppresed Cell by the Buu saga.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7579: Sep 1st 2014 at 7:47:37 PM

As far as protagonists go on their own strength, I would say Piccolo is probably the strongest. He's overshadowed only by the amazing multipliers that the Saiyans get to use, and even then, he kept up pretty hard - being stronger than Super Saiyan Vegeta means that Piccolo, at that point in time, was at least 50 Vegetas. That's larger than the gap between Krillin and Goku at the end of Namek.

After merging with God, Piccolo far outweighed the Saiyans on his own merits; they only kept up with him because of the Super Saiyan multipliers and, later, fusion. To my knowledge, it's unclear if they ever surpassed him in their base forms.

edited 1st Sep '14 7:48:46 PM by TobiasDrake

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940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7580: Sep 1st 2014 at 8:55:42 PM

[up]Fusing in itself is a powerup though.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
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#7581: Sep 1st 2014 at 9:08:34 PM

While fusing with Kami is debateable since they were kinda-sorta the same person, Nail is a different situation entirely. Also, it's sad that by the end of his mid-arc training, he's only able to best the previous arc's biggest threat.

Episode 43 Breakdown:

The benefits of using headphones... buuuut... I note the voices aren't completely isolated. You can still hear a bit in both. Oh well. Also, I'd like to see Piccolo, Nail and Kami share/co-interrupt the "fan based parody, BUY THE F*KING SHOW" bit.

edited 1st Sep '14 9:19:16 PM by wanderlustwarrior

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7582: Sep 2nd 2014 at 5:44:59 AM

Can you give me the chapter/interview where that's said? I'd much like to be sure.

Firstly there's the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (the arc before the Saiyan arc) where Goku says Piccolo Daimao put "everything of himself" inside the egg and so Ma Junior is "hardly any different from the old Piccolo". At several points, Ma Junior is referred to as "Piccolo Daimao" including the character bios of the manga volumes, until he dies in the Saiyan arc. Then he's explicitly called a reincarnation, firstly saying he is Daimao's reincarnation at the Budokai (after his clothing is damaged by Goku's Kamehameha and his Clark Kenting disguise is ruined) and Gohan also mentions that Goku told him Piccolo had been reincarnated.

The guidebooks also mention this in his character bios, but it's mostly just regurgitating what the manga said.

I mean, wasn't Frieza a mutant of his species?

Or his whole family?

If you want a human powerful enough to take on the saiyans, just call him a mutant.

That's not enough. The Ginyu Force are mutants with Battle powers of 40,000 - 120,000 which wouldn't do the humans much good. Hell, Kuririn/Ten/Yamcha/Chaozu themselves could already be mutants to get where they were - they far outstrip Roshi, Tao, Crane Hermit, etc. Cui, Zarbon and Dodoria could all very well be mutants with their battle powers being so high (and being the only ones of their races seen in Freeza's employ).

Freeza isn't a good example because he's an outlier even for the mutants.

The trend set by the Ginyu Force puts 30, 000 to 60, 000 as exceptionally high powers rarely seen anywhere in the entire universe. Namekians are explicitly stated to have high power for a species, which is why their average fighters are between 1, 000 and 10, 000, which is still unconscionably high compared to Earth.

Minor correction on Namek, but the only fighters seen in the manga apart from Nail all read at 3,000. 1,000 was just the level they were at when suppressing themselves. And they're still known as a race with extraordinarily high battle powers.

edited 2nd Sep '14 5:45:27 AM by Saiga

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#7583: Sep 2nd 2014 at 7:50:23 AM

I thought Cold was the mutant of his people and Cooler and Freeza budded off of him due to his mutation. I don't remember where I heard that from.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7584: Sep 2nd 2014 at 8:00:41 AM

Was it 3,000? My mistake. I think I said "1,000 to 10,000" in the other thread too.

EDIT: There we go. I was pulling numbers from Kanzenshuu because I have trouble keeping track of all the exact numbers, and 10,000 was for three Namekians who attacked Frieza in anime filler. That's where the confusion came from.

Excluding characters made up for the anime who contradict the canon by Nail's own statement that he's the only Warrior-Type Namekian, yes, it's 3,000 for Namekian fighters.

edited 2nd Sep '14 8:04:49 AM by TobiasDrake

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#7585: Sep 2nd 2014 at 9:37:59 AM

Does one really need to explain it very much?

Seems to me that just doing it, and then saying "Humans have a potential that surprised everyone" would be sufficient.

I have a message from another time...
purplefishman Misanthrope Supreme from Ganzir Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
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#7586: Sep 2nd 2014 at 11:50:40 AM

Well, I once had this idea about Krillin, as a Buddhist monk, managing to Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence through meditation and enlightenment that would vastly increase his strength, but it has two problems :

1) it brings a mystical/religious edge that would clash with the overall tone of Dragon Ball.

2) it's Krillin we're talking about. I'm not sure he can be held as a great buddhist model.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7587: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:06:23 PM

1) it brings a mystical/religious edge that would clash with the overall tone of Dragon Ball.

  • God
  • The Afterlife
  • King Enma
  • Hell

...what?

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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#7588: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:42:40 PM

Shit, the whole story is an adaptation of Journey To The West, an allegory for the path a Buddhist must take to reach enlightenment. Krillin overcoming his mortal foibles and becoming a true bodhisattva would be a nice little callback to the story's origins.

What's precedent ever done for us?
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#7589: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:47:36 PM

Isn't Bulma the "Tripitaka" of Dragonball?

edited 2nd Sep '14 1:47:54 PM by GethKnight

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#7590: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:56:14 PM

Probably, but Sanzang's three rather less enlightened demonic companions also attained enlightenment, so Krillin's still in the running.

What's precedent ever done for us?
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#7591: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:57:07 PM

Goku is Son Wukon and Oolong is Piggy. Who was the third? Yamcha?

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#7592: Sep 2nd 2014 at 1:59:52 PM

Probably. He was a desert bandit, which seems appropriate for Sha Wujing, Friar Sand. And I guess Puar is the dragon-horse.

What's precedent ever done for us?
purplefishman Misanthrope Supreme from Ganzir Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Misanthrope Supreme
#7593: Sep 2nd 2014 at 2:13:03 PM

@Tobias Drake : I meant, too openly entrenched in an existing religion still practiced by millions of people around the world. Dragon Ball does have mysticism, but it's way more fantasy-ish than based on real concepts.

Although I did forget the whole "Journey to the West adaptation" bit. Uh.

Edit : And I edited this post about a dozen times now. Hope I didn't say anything too stupid, as usual.

edited 2nd Sep '14 2:19:00 PM by purplefishman

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7594: Sep 2nd 2014 at 2:53:04 PM

No, Dragon Ball's theology is very much rooted in real concepts.

King Enma is based on Yama, the Buddhist God of Death.

Kami and Piccolo are the Christian God and the Devil; Kami literally means God, is presented as God and never has a name besides God, and he opposes the Demon King who embodies all evil.

Even Shenron is a mythical figure, the storm dragon Shenlong from Chinese myth - which is why the sky turns black and stormy whenever he is summoned.

edited 2nd Sep '14 2:57:14 PM by TobiasDrake

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GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7596: Sep 2nd 2014 at 2:59:03 PM

Near as I can tell, apart from being a genie, Popo is an original figure -

edited 2nd Sep '14 3:00:57 PM by TobiasDrake

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#7597: Sep 2nd 2014 at 3:00:40 PM

Mr. Popo is black, vaguely Middle Eastern, and for a time, was the second strongest being on Earth (next to God).

Obviously he's a very racist Jesus tongue

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7598: Sep 2nd 2014 at 3:01:27 PM

Well, his name DOES call to mind the word "Pope," especially given Toriyama's propensity for naming characters after words.

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KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#7599: Sep 2nd 2014 at 4:09:24 PM

Dragonball does do a lot of Doing In the Wizard in regards to its gods, now that I think about it. Kami's pretty much only a god because he arrived on Earth and decided to be one, and there's isn't a lot to most of the other deities we meet beyond being particularly strong. DBZA even lampshades this in regards to Yemma. The only god that ever gave me the impression that he was special in some way because he was a god (as apposed to being in charge of X because of the same standard of strength the other characters are subject to) is the Supreme Kai.

Granted, Shenron (and Porunga, by extension - or the other way around, if you prefer) are consistently portrayed as a different kind of entity with vastly different kinds of influence.

940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#7600: Sep 2nd 2014 at 4:13:14 PM

That Meditation powerup for Krillin isn't that bad an idea IMO. Tien's arm growing technique could be his powerup. I don't know what Yamcha's powerup could be. Yamcha has an awesome epithet; The Desert Bandit.


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