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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5851: Feb 17th 2014 at 7:10:49 PM

Wait, I thought Kaio was revived with everyone else.

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Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
Werefox
#5852: Feb 17th 2014 at 8:28:27 PM

Like Gotenks not having Super Saiyan 3, Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is, the Dragon Balls only granting 1 wish (in the Buu arc, Dende modified them to grant 3), Bulma being 38 when she should be in her late 40s, Gohan turning Super Saiyan, Gohan not even being Ultimate and just being sloppily recolored at the last second at the expense of the plot's logic, etc. These are just continuity issues; the film also has a lot of straight-up plot holes.

Ok None of these are really big issues. Who said Gotenks did not have Super Saiyan 3 he just got his ass kicked so fast and hard he never had a chance to use it or do anything for that matter. Mr. Satan met Dende but I don't recall him being told that he was god. Dende upgraded them to two wishes and if I recall they would still go dormant and scatter if the person did not want another wish. Gohan could still turn super saiyan while being Ultimate, but it just did not do anything for his power and he only turned super saiyan for the ritual at the end. The fact that he was recolored means they fixed the problem, the makers simply forgot there was no point for him going super saiyan and fixed it afterwords. Last I checked in the movie it was implied that Bulma was lying about her age.

Now what are the plot holes?

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stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#5853: Feb 17th 2014 at 8:36:01 PM

Gohan could still turn super saiyan while being Ultimate

Far as I am aware the consensus has been no, he can't.

Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
Werefox
#5854: Feb 17th 2014 at 9:23:03 PM

[up]And to me it's and a bunch of other people it's been yes he can, but there is no point as it does not make him stronger.

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5855: Feb 17th 2014 at 9:44:53 PM

[up][up][up]

Gotenks just saw a supposedly 'Ultimate' Gohan get wrecked. And he's not gonna use SS-3? Right...

He knew Dende was a god in the Buu arc. BOG acts like they never met at all.

The dragon granted 1 wish here. If Dende's modifications were in place, the dragon would grant 3 wishes, and Pilaf and co would just wish themselves back to adulthood then for world domination or something. So, this is yet another inconsistency.

No, he can't.

No, the movie never implied that. She tries to keep it a secret, only for Krillin to prod about it, and Bulma angrily blurts out that she's 38 by accident later. It's definitely portrayed as her real age. The nail in the coffin for this movie.

Bulma's age doesn't line up, Gotenks just has SS, Dende and Satan don't know each other, the dragon balls haven't been modified... this movie only makes sense if the events of the Fusion Saga (the "Super Buu arc") didn't happen at all.

[up] He really can't. In the manga, when Old Kai asks him to transform into a Super Saiyan, he attempts to and turns Ultimate instead. I don't know how much more clear it can really be.

edited 17th Feb '14 9:47:47 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5856: Feb 17th 2014 at 10:49:04 PM

[up][up][up][up] Nope. I think that Goku explained that Kaio stayed dead to keep him company, but I'm not entirely sure.

There has never been anything to say that Gohan can still turn Super Saiyan. Only that he didn't when he tried, and was told that was the wrong way of doing things. If something's going to give him the ability to turn into a Super Saiyan again that actually needs explaining.

Dende and Satan's interaction is basically the same interaction they had during the Boo arc, with Satan finding out Dende was God there as well. It's so very weird.

For Shenron to save the wishes, you specifically have to ask for that. In Battle of Gods, Shenron left without being prompted to, and Pilaf, Shu and Mai would have been able to make their second wish the first time around. There's also a contradiction with how Shenron granting youth is portrayed - he fucks it up for Pilaf, Shu and Mai and yet doesn't with Piccolo Daimao despite it being the same wish. YMMV if that's a plot hole but it's definitely a different portrayal.

edited 17th Feb '14 10:59:38 PM by Saiga

Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
Werefox
#5857: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:22:43 PM

[up][up]Gotenks was beaten before he could do pretty much anything and the fact that he did not get a chance to transform is really nit picky. I honestly think your being overly nit-picky about this. We don't know when Pilaf got his wish it could have been before the two wish rule came into place. The dragon was freaked out by Beerus so I can understand just wanting to turn into the balls again. It makes sense if the arc happened there are some problems but Toriyama never had the best memory.

Anyway most inconsistencies can be explained by the creators forgetting things. (Like Toriyama did for Lunch.)

[up]We don't know how Pilaf worded his wish and maybe the dragon just decided to be a jackass for a change.

edited 17th Feb '14 11:24:17 PM by Saya1

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5858: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:28:46 PM

The inconsistency is that he uses the useless SS form at all when has SS-3 and knows his enemy is strong enough to one-shot his SS form.

Not really. The movie has more continuity issues than the majority of them, so I don't like when people say it's "canon", because it wouldn't be even if someone stated it was as a result of what's on the screen not matching up with what's in the manga.

We saw Shenron show up in the movie. He granted 1 wish then left. He should have stayed to grant 2 more. Continuity issue.

Toriyama was never THIS ridiculously forgetful (he didn't write this movie btw, Watanbe did), he only forgot about three minor hair details in a manga he finished 20 years ago. Give the guy a break.

Toriyama never forgot Lunch.

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#5859: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:32:53 PM

I thought Shenron was only able to grant two wishes after Dende upgraded him in the Cell saga. I don't recall him ever being upgraded after that.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5860: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:51:10 PM

He says he can make it three, but if they revive a bunch of people it will be two. At this time it's unclear whether it just means that he will make Shenron have two wishes and the ability to revive multiple people (which Porunga, with three wishes, lacked) or if he has three wishes but can only use two if one of those is used to mass revive. In the Boo arc it's explained that Shenron works in the later way but he could have been upgraded over the timeskip as Porunga was. Never explicitly mentioned that it was though, so I believe that's how it always was.

edited 17th Feb '14 11:51:40 PM by Saiga

TropayXion The i. one. from HEART Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
The i. one.
#5861: Feb 18th 2014 at 1:39:45 AM

I thought Gotenks was supposed to be incredibly arrogant and have a higher-than-usual power level? Makes sense to me he wouldn't immediately go all out.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5862: Feb 18th 2014 at 2:04:18 AM

He wasn't that arrogant. Both of his components acknowledged Gohan's superiority to SS-3 Gotenks, so it makes zero sense for Gotenks to not even use that form against Beers.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5863: Feb 18th 2014 at 2:54:58 AM

Given that Goten and Trunks skipped the bullshit and fused into Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks against Boo the second time, because they knew they needed to do so, they should have done so here. They've seen first hand that Beers is stronger than Gohan, so they'd know they need Super Saiyan 3. The whole scene doesn't make sense if Gohan is Ultimate and Gotenks has Super Saiyan 3 up his sleeve.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#5864: Feb 18th 2014 at 7:59:04 AM

Only that he didn't when he tried, and was told that was the wrong way of doing things.

Which becomes terribly ironic when Ultimate Gohan manages to accomplish f*ck all, and the universe is saved by the Super Saiyans yet again.

[up] Saiga, you'd be able to answer this best: is the part where Gotenks went after Buu without even being able to transform into the first SSJ form canon or anime filler?

Gotenks is ridiculously arrogant, far moreso than any other character in the series, with the possible exception of Vegetto. Even if Goten and Trunks know that Gohan is more powerful than Gotenks, Gotenks himself might go, "Meh, I'm great and powerful and stronger than anything in the universe, I can win anything!"

Or he might try SSJ 1 first in the hopes of making it more dramatic and turning SSJ 3 at a critical moment when he seems like he's losing, as he intended to do against Buu.

edited 18th Feb '14 8:04:02 AM by TobiasDrake

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#5865: Feb 18th 2014 at 8:11:05 AM

Gotenks being an arrogant little shit seems in-character to me.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#5866: Feb 18th 2014 at 9:48:56 AM

They really need to upgrade Shenron to the newest version of Drag OS.

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wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#5867: Feb 18th 2014 at 11:30:36 AM

But the new OS are named after big cats, which as we all know are the natural enemy of dragons.

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Pucker Since: Feb, 2014
#5868: Feb 18th 2014 at 12:19:03 PM

Gee, this discussion of canon of the Dragonball Z movies is fascinating and all, but does anyone know where the thread to discuss Dragonball Z abridged, the hilarious anime comedy show, is located?

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#5869: Feb 18th 2014 at 12:20:28 PM

i think its called Manga/Dragon Ball.

nairoxev Since: Nov, 2011
#5870: Feb 18th 2014 at 12:49:22 PM

Bulma being 38 when she should be in her late 40s
whenever you notice something like that... a Shenron did it.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#5871: Feb 18th 2014 at 1:28:02 PM

Here's hoping we get a Brick Joke from Season 2 when they do the History of Trunks special.

edited 18th Feb '14 1:28:39 PM by FOFD

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5872: Feb 18th 2014 at 3:02:18 PM

is the part where Gotenks went after Buu without even being able to transform into the first SSJ form canon or anime filler?

It's in the manga as well.

Gotenks is ridiculously arrogant, far moreso than any other character in the series, with the possible exception of Vegetto. Even if Goten and Trunks know that Gohan is more powerful than Gotenks, Gotenks himself might go, "Meh, I'm great and powerful and stronger than anything in the universe, I can win anything!"

But Goten and Trunks would just fuse into Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, since they have the ability to do that immediately upon forming Gotenks instead of forming and then powering up. So even if Gotenks was more arrogant, he doesn't get to decide which form they start in. It's also unknown if Gotenks is really more arrogant than either of them since the plan to use Super Saiyan 1 before Super Saiyan 3 (against Boo) was Trunks' idea. Not using Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is really out of character since we've seen what is in character is to immediately jump into it when they know they need it.

Saya1 Werefox from Multiverse Since: Oct, 2011
Werefox
#5873: Feb 18th 2014 at 3:48:34 PM

[up]I don't think it's out of character at all as he is a arrogant shit that would have transformed a bit later into the fight. If he had not been beaten instantly.

Seriously this Gotenks and most of these "problems" are super nitpicky.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5874: Feb 18th 2014 at 3:51:41 PM

Except I'm using what we've actually seen of the kids. They formulated the dumb plan when they didn't know Boo's power. When they did, they chose to immediately fuse into Super Saiyan 3. Here, they've seen that Beers is even stronger than that and yet don't act the same way they did before. It's inconsistent. You're ignoring what has actually happened in the situation most similar to the one in the movie.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5875: Feb 18th 2014 at 4:02:12 PM

And these problems aren't "super nitpicky", they're a lot more glaring than the vast majority of the other problems in the movies.

Also, that is ridiculously out of character for Gotenks, as he used SS-3 immediately against Buu when he knew how strong he was the second time, and acknowledged Ultimate Gohan > him. In this movie, Gotenks doesn't have SS-3 and Gohan isn't Ultimate. If either of those things aren't true, the scene as it is depicted cannot happen.

edited 18th Feb '14 4:05:03 PM by sockpuppet1


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