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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5826: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:19:17 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] No, he didn't. Don't say that, that's how rumors start/spread.

On SSG's place in the ca- continuity: Toriyama did design it, Beers, and Whis. But that doesn't mean much, since he designed every new character in the old movies. He was involved in the script writing process, but he wasn't the main or final writer, that was the guy who wrote all of the other movies. Does it fit into the timeline? Well, no, it really doesn't. There's far too many continuity issues in Movie 14 to reconcile it with the series without ignoring huge parts of the manga.

edited 17th Feb '14 11:21:37 AM by sockpuppet1

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#5827: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:32:01 AM

Continuity errors like what?

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5828: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:34:59 AM

Like Gotenks not having Super Saiyan 3, Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is, the Dragon Balls only granting 1 wish (in the Buu arc, Dende modified them to grant 3), Bulma being 38 when she should be in her late 40s, Gohan turning Super Saiyan, Gohan not even being Ultimate and just being sloppily recolored at the last second at the expense of the plot's logic, etc.

These are just continuity issues; the film also has a lot of straight-up plot holes.

edited 17th Feb '14 6:01:10 PM by sockpuppet1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5829: Feb 17th 2014 at 11:38:14 AM

I should point out that Toriyama designing SSJ God, Beers, and Whis doesn't mean much. He also designed Androids 13-15, GT-era characters, and other designs used in supplemental materials, and none of those are considered "canon" just because Toriyama designed the characters.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#5830: Feb 17th 2014 at 12:21:08 PM

A friendly reminder that we mostly mean "continuity" when we say "canon"

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5831: Feb 17th 2014 at 12:28:20 PM

...but those don't mean the same thing. And even then, saying "well it's not in continuity" is wrong unless something actually keeps it from fitting in. As is "Toriyama said X was in continuity", cause he never said anything about that.

Pucker Since: Feb, 2014
#5832: Feb 17th 2014 at 12:34:31 PM

[up][up][up]Wait, how can 13-15 not be canon. We have number 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20, so logically the numbers before them are canon, right?

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5833: Feb 17th 2014 at 1:09:29 PM

They were referenced in the manga as failed projects. Movie 7 had them be completed by Gero's computer.

I like to assume that Movie 7 is a universe where 16 was never released and Cell was taken out by Kamiccolo, who proceeded to kill 17 after a close battle. Then the three Super Saiyans rushed in to back up Kamiccolo and took out 18. Then Bulma finished her android-destroying remote, and gave it to Trunks. Movie 7 happens right after, then Trunks goes back to his timeline and uses the remote to deactivate his androids, then Cell kills him and stills his time machine. That Cell then travels out the main timeline and becomes the Cell we all know and love.

edited 17th Feb '14 1:09:59 PM by sockpuppet1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5834: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:48:34 PM

[up][up]Well, the events of the movie aren't necessarily considered within continuity just because Toriyama designed the antagonists, I mean. That was admittedly a poor choice of example due to the nature of said androids.

Fun fact: Toriyama is the one who designed GT Vegeta with his ugly hairdo and moustache.

edited 17th Feb '14 5:49:05 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#5835: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:49:56 PM

The movies are not canon. Just don't think too much of them.

The only movies that are canon are the Bardock one (via Canon Immigrant) and the last two ones (Because Toriyama wrote them, and really don't contradict with the established canon besides two minor details).

edited 17th Feb '14 5:56:29 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5836: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:55:42 PM

Toriyama didn't write the last two ones (which is the second that you're even talking about?) just Battle of Gods. And there is no official canon for Dragon Ball.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5837: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:56:02 PM

[up][up]We've been over that. The fact that Toriyama helped write the last one movie doesn't necessarily make it "canon", for lack of a better term.

As far as I know he did not write or have any involvement in Wrath of the Dragon.

edited 17th Feb '14 5:56:13 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#5838: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:56:08 PM

Nevermind, I don't really belong in this discussion.

edited 17th Feb '14 5:57:48 PM by BaconManiac5000

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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5839: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:56:12 PM

[up][up][up][up]Wrong, wrong, and wrong. There's no such thing as a DB canon, so something can't "not" be canon, the Bardock special was recently knocked right out of continuity by Toriyama contradicting it with his Jaco manga, and Toriyama never wrote any of the movies. The latest movie, BOG, also can't be fit into the continuity due to many issues.

[up] None. Toriyama didn't write any of the movies. He's had varying levels of involvement in all of them, with his involvement in BOG probably being the most significant, but he didn't write it. He wrote an original draft, which was heavily modified by Watanbe, the actual credited writer of this movie.

edited 17th Feb '14 5:58:07 PM by sockpuppet1

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#5840: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:57:29 PM

What issues? BOG only contradictory thing is King Kai planet.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5841: Feb 17th 2014 at 5:58:45 PM

Like Gotenks not having Super Saiyan 3, Mr. Satan not knowing who Dende is, the Dragon Balls only granting 1 wish (in the Buu arc, Dende modified them to grant 3), Bulma being 38 when she should be in her late 40s, Gohan turning Super Saiyan, Gohan not even being Ultimate and just being sloppily recolored at the last second at the expense of the plot's logic, etc.

These are just continuity issues; the film also has a lot of straight-up plot holes.

That's way more issues than pretty much every other movie, except 2, 3, maybe 4, maybe 11, and 12.

Movies 1, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 13 all have less issues than movie 14 (BOG). Movie 7 doesn't fit in the main continuity, but has a nice place to fit in the actual canon story, in an alternate timeline, where it works fine.

edited 17th Feb '14 6:00:56 PM by sockpuppet1

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5842: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:04:48 PM

Is 13 the only one that could reasonably fit into plothole-free continuity with the original manga, taking place after the series and not directly contradicting the "5 years later" ending? Everything else seems to have SOME issue.

The Bojack movie seems like it could fit, but King Kai is dead during it, which doesn't fit, so...

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#5843: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:06:07 PM

...How doesn't it fit? It takes place after Cell. Cell blew up and killed King Kai.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#5844: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:09:14 PM

And was revived.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#5845: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:10:11 PM

...Really? I could have sworn he still had a halo when Goku entered that Other World tournament thing.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5846: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:14:05 PM

Yeah, he did. Kaio stayed dead.

biznizz Since: Jan, 2001
#5847: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:15:14 PM

Wait... how was the Bardock special "knocked out of canon" by Jaco?

Ugh, this whole thing is turning into a roundabout argument. To get closer onto target for DBZA, does anyone know if they'll do the Trunks special?

Sometimes life just sucks. You have to learn to take the good with the bad. Why should you expect anything different in the mediums?
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#5848: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:15:53 PM

I think they're planning on doing the specials mostly with conventions.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#5849: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:24:15 PM

[up][up] Most likely referring to the fact that in the special Goku was sent as a newborn, in the Jaco manga he was older.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#5850: Feb 17th 2014 at 6:32:35 PM

Movie 5 also fits. It just has the typical Toei base saiyan PIS. Like in M13, where Goku waits until everyone is KO'd and he's half dead to go Super Saiyan 3.

Movie 9 doesn't fit because he saw his dad in this movie. In the Buu Saga, he says he hasn't seen Goku since the Cell Games. It's fine aside from that, though.

edited 17th Feb '14 7:09:35 PM by sockpuppet1


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